August 2016 Waiver Wire Rumors and Deals

[Slinging_Southpaw]

I haven't heard anything about any players being put through waivers, though I'm sure many have been.
Just wondering how much maneuvering between team goes on behind the scenes.
Example-Looking at Colorado and Pittsburgh as first claimers on Hellickson. Pirates call Klentak, tell him, if you hold out on putting Hellickson through and we move ahead of Colorado in the waiver claim line(behind in the standings), we'll give you this, this and that for Hellickson.
Just wondering. " title="Confused"/>

I know, "this, this, and that" is way too much to expect in return for Hellickson.

[zambonir]

Interesting question, though technically illegal (collusion) I would think. I'm not sure it helps either side to make that sort of arrangement anyway. And Klentak already knows what every team's best offer for Hellickson was; the claiming team's offer is unlikely to be better unless they have additional motivation (injury, losing streak) to improve. I think if I were Klentak I'd be holding back Hellickson for a while regardless, and studying the waiver order closely, but that's all.

[California_Dreamin]

Something to think about as we hope that the Phils make an August waiver deal or two. Jayson Stark was on 97.5 with Mike Missanelli and said that teams felt that Klentak was asking for way too much for his players and that was why no deals were made.

He also said that there was a deal to be made with Baltimore but that the Phillies wanted one of Baltimore's regulars for Hellickson and the speculation was that it was Jonathan Swoop. No way was Baltimore going to make this deal.

Now as with all trade possibilities, the name Swoop is rumored, based on Phillie needs and Baltimore starting lineup players. But the key thing to me was the perception that Klentak placed too much value on his players and expected a huge return for them.

To me, this is a double edged sword. I admire that Klentak can't or won't be bullied or pressured into a deal, a very good quality. But as I mentioned before, the very good GM's in baseball find ways to make deals, a combination of trust, energy and a stick to it attitude that simply makes things happen. We saw it with Paul Owens, a guy who literally got players like Bake McBride and Dick Ruthven minutes before the trading deadline simply because he refused to give up.

Here is a good example of what I am talking about. We know based on reports from Stark and others [Salisbury] that the Phils and Marlins were far along in trade talks for Hellickson and I suspect the Phils were going to get Naylor and a young pitching prospect. Reports are that Florida asked for another pitcher and the speculation was that it was Eickhoff. Klentak wisely said no, and both Stark and Salisbury said the talks ended there.

Well, to me, a really good GM would have said, "no to Eickhoff but who else wets your whistle, lets see if we can make this happen. Or how about Hellickson for Naylor straight up?" Perhaps this did happen but based on reports from Stark and Salisbury, the talks ended when the Marlins asked for Eickhoff. These are the situations that generally separate the Owens and Epstein's from the normal GM.

I will forever recall Curt Schilling say that Epstein simply refused to take no for an answer when he asked Curt to come to Boston, when Schill had his heart set on Philly or NY. Epstein still seems that way and its no coincidence to me that he still gets the top talent in trade. I hope Klentak can be like that someday.

I like Klentak very much and feel he is learning on the job very well. But this will be something to watch for going forward. He mentioned that the one thing he learned from this trading period was the high value teams now put on solid relief pitchers and how much they are now willing to play for them.

And yet, here we sit on Aug 5 with Hernandez, Gomez and Neris still on the roster. Seems one of them could have been moved for a prospect or two.

[Austinfan]

CD, if the Marlins asked for Eickhoff they weren't interested in making a deal, Eickhoff has more value than Hellickson (younger, stronger, better stuff, very low cost for a few more years). You don't ask for a more valuable player to be thrown in to complete a deal if you're serious about negotiating a deal.

[julio]

Well, I think it's pretty well understood that Jayson Stark isn't the fount of reliable information that he once was in Philadelphia. CD, do you disagree?

That said...If Klentak was "asking too much," my first reaction is, "bully for him!" This organization needs to establish that it's nobody's patsy.

Regarding Hellickson in particular, notwithstanding Stark's speculation, it was, I thought, pretty well understood that the Phillies wanted a return at least equivalent to the draft pick they expect to get if/when Hellickson leaves via FA. Stark's speculation now is different; why? Possibly because he heard something from a credible source - but he labeled it as speculation, so possibly/probably not a credible source, eh?

We do have to consider that the media have a certain need to keep stories alive; it's what pays the bills, gets them web hits, twitter followers, just simple attention, makes them feel important, etc. So when they have nothing concrete, they speculate.

Personally, I don't find this need to keep stories alive, whether for pecuniary reasons, or just because those who report them like/need the attention, very helpful. In particular, in a case like this, I really don't see what Stark, or anybody else thinks is gained by speculating about what did, or did not happen last week. That's past; what is of interest now is what might happen in August/September, what might happen after the season, what might happen in 2017.

[Florida_Sunshine]

The honest to god truth is that we don't know because none of us were there and reporters are paid for speculating.

And truthfully, Eickhoff alone was worth more than Hellickson so that just sounds silly to think he would have been included when we are trying to develop our prospects and he is one of the good ones. And the board had already pretty clearly established that the Marlins were NOT a good match for us as a trade partner.

I do find it interesting that some on here have a pattern of keeping stories alive and keeping score down the road. I really wish that would stop. It takes away from the enjoyment of the board, news and speculation about what may happen in the future, not what might have happened in the past.

[California_Dreamin]

Just sharing info. Stark is still pretty well thought of in Philly, and was on a Philly radio station. I also believe I said that I was glad that Klentak couldn't we walked on. That said, if he honestly thought Baltimore would deal Swoop for Hellickson, then he might as well ask for Jones or Machado. Teams in contention are rarely going to trade regulars.

And I disagree with you that since its the past, it has no relevance. This is completely false. Those of us who remember Owens will likely confirm that we always knew he would come through on June 15th. Why? Because his past indicated he would.

My story about Klentaks past might be an indication of what happens in August...which if I'm not mistaken, is what this whole thread is about. While not completely bulletproof, I think it is fair to say a persons past is somewhat of an indicator of what he will do in the present or future.

Let's see

FS...to suggest that Salisbury and Stark really don't know what they are talking about is simply false, we have often said that if Salisbury mentions it we can almost take it to the bank.

[Florida_Sunshine]

CD,

I am not merely suggesting it, I am saying that they do not always know the real insides of a deal. But, that is not the same as saying that Salisbury and Stark really don't know what they are talking about. All you have to do is look at previous deals that have been made and the news speculation on the makeup of the deal prior to it being announced.

I think you got lost on your comment about the past. Not sure that it relates to what I said.

[California_Dreamin]

FS...fair enough.

[Slinging_Southpaw]

Jonathan Schoop.
I saw that somewhere too, but thought it was just someone connecting the dots, with no firm knowledge of Klentak's dealings.
If true, I like his thinking, but it probably belongs in the Delusional thread.

[Slinging_Southpaw]

The reality for Baltimore is they had nothing to trade.
If Klentak was going to get a strong return from Baltimore, it wasn't going to come from their minor league system(it's bad). They ended up with Wade Miley who has been pretty poor, pitching in a pitchers park this season, because they had nothing to trade without it coming from their active roster.

[andyb]

And one piece they might have considered trading, Dylan Bundy, is now starting to pitch pretty well in the rotation sitting in the mid 90s. He might be on an innings limit but since he was lightly used out of the bullpen the first half he probably can make it through the season in the rotation.

[Austinfan]

That's why all trade rumors should be taken with a bag of salt.
GMs talk to everyone, that's their job, names get thrown around.
Then some source mentions we were talking to Klentak about Hellickson, Schoop got mentioned - but totally without context (i.e., the give and take of the negotiations).

I don't think Klentak was asking for the moon, but you have to figure the equivalent of a comp pick is someone who'd be ranked in our top ten prospects (far from a sure thing, late 1st or sandwich pick are guys like Watson, Gueller, Greene, etc. but also Cozens, etc.). So if a team was offering someone who'd rank 11-20th for Hellickson, well, we have a lot of those guys, we're going to struggle to fit them all in the 40 man roster. At that point, keep Hellickson.

It's not just how teams valued Hellickson, it's which teams wanted him and whether they had anything to trade that Klentak would want - the Orioles being a good example.

[julio]

Let's summarize what we actually have here:

1) CD reports that he heard Stark on the radio, and Stark said that "other teams felt Klentak was asking for too much," and that's why there were no deals. There's probably no transcript so we can't check exactly what he said, but regardless, DUH. By definition, if a club had talks with the Phils about Player X, and the teams could not come to agreement, it would be because the other team felt Klentak wanted too much (and because Klentak felt the other club offered too little - one and the same thing). This isn't a revelation, nor particularly enlightening. It's tautological. As such, it tells us nothing - nada - about Klentak. Well, except perhaps that he wasn't willing to cave in and accept less than he felt somebody was worth - to make a trade just to make a trade...but that would be a good thing, no?

2) Per CD, the talks with the Marlins collapsed when Florida made absurd demands. The characterization was "talks ended there," but of course nobody (not Stark nor Salisbury) would/could have any idea if that was, in fact, "the end" (unless they've tapped Klentak's phone). It's evidently fair to say that the two clubs concluded they couldn't make a deal - but impossible (and IMHO unfair) to reasonably conclude that Klentak made no counter-offer when the Marlins asked for Eickhoff. Keep in mind that such a counter-offer could have been something like, "No, we can't give you Eickhoff; how about Buchanan?", followed by "When pigs fly, Matt!" from the Marlins.

3) I want to note that the part of the above about "Klentak was asking for too much" appears to come only from Jayson Stark, and only in a radio comment (e.g., not in writing; not reviewable). We should be careful not to read our subsequent discussion as conflating that comment with "Stark and Salisbury" as sources, unless we have some evidence that Salisbury has independently reported something of the same ilk. There's sometimes a tendency here to repeat things over and over, bring them up again and again, until something that began as a single speculation, or unsourced "report," becomes more or less "accepted wisdom." We end up deluding ourselves that we know things we do not know.

[California_Dreamin]

Stark also tweeted it yesterday, Aug 4. He said that "other teams thought Klentak priced his players too high." Those were his words and if his words are so foolish, why would a Philadelphia sports station waste their time having him on? And I am unsure where this "oh, Stark is not very connected to Phillies baseball" comes from, the guy lives in Philadelphia, wrote some best selling books on the Phillies, wrote a baseball column for many years at the Inquier that was every bit as slanted to include Phillie stuff as Gammons still writes more stuff about the Red Sox than any other team and still has deep baseball contacts. I mean, he still writes a baseball column for ESPN that is well thought of and well read.

My gosh, this is no Alfred E. Neuman here and he was reporting what he was told, to a Philadelphia audience. That doesn't mean he was right, it does likely mean it was what he was told and we know this much....people were shocked, and it was said by several people, that it was stunning that Hellickson wasn't moved. And we know this wasn't because of Nola's injury, to his credit Klentak himself said it had no influence on his decision.

Look, I applaud Klentak for standing firm rather than be a mamby pamby. Good for him. But I also know this...we know very little about him and are still learning about him. I simply don't think it makes any sense to so quickly wash down the toilet a comment made on a Philadelphia sports station [probably one many of you listen to also] by a guy who has been getting paid for quite a long time in the baseball world to get things right about what he reports on baseball.

And I will repeat what I said before. We started an August Waiver Wire thread because we hope/expect some Phillie action and my guess is that if on Sept 1 we have had no action on this thread, there will be more than a few disappointed Phillie phans. So what Stark had to say may have lots of relevance.

We shall see.

[julio]

Stark also tweeted it yesterday, Aug 4. He said that "other teams thought Klentak priced his players too high." Those were his words and if his words are so foolish, why would a Philadelphia sports station waste their time having him on?

I said before, and I'll say again... This is absolutely the definition of any and all failed trade discussions. "He wanted too much," countered by "They offered too little." It's tautological (e.g., it's true by definition, and thus conveys zero meaning or insight).

It's not so much that he's wrong (he's not), but that it's a bit like saying "the sky is up," or "the sun rises in the east." It's true, but it's not an insight.

As for "Why would a Philadelphia sports station waste their time having him on?" You don't seriously consider this a real argument, do you? Philly sports stations waste their time with meaningless guests virtually all the time. Stations bring on people with name recognition because they hope listeners will tune in (and buy the crap products they hawk); "celebrity" people like Stark go on and say things...because that's how they earn a living. So Stark says something that's an absolute platitude... and listeners think it's insightful?

Give me a break.

[Squire]

Well by definition every time a trade doesn't get made both teams think the other side asked for too much.

[schillingfan]

Stark also tweeted it yesterday, Aug 4. He said that "other teams thought Klentak priced his players too high." Those were his words and if his words are so foolish, why would a Philadelphia sports station waste their time having him on?

We're talking Mike Missanelli here, who as an inflated ego and very little real understanding of baseball. Stark was a respected columnist who wrote amusing anecdotal stories and meaningless number quirks. As a columnist he was a good read. Now he works for ESPN and asks trivia questions on ESPN radio. He is what he is. His contacts with the Phillies organization these days is probably limited.

[EastFallowfield]

I trust Salisbury more than Stark. He said the Marlins asked for too much. Getting angry at our GM for not giving away Hellickson for garbage seems silly.

[julio]

I trust Salisbury more than Stark. He said the Marlins asked for too much. Getting angry at our GM for not giving away Hellickson for garbage seems silly.

My impression is that some fans are looking for reasons to be critical/suspicious of Klentak. Maybe this is just a holdover from the prior regime (or regimes), and it's hard to let go of distrust. Thus the assumption that Klentak blew it ("went down with the ship..." !?), or that a "better GM" would have made something happen, or the (what I see as) clutching at straws (e.g., some GMs said the Phils asked for too much!!!). I don't know; I can't say that I understand where it comes from. It's like there was an expectation - a sense of entitlement, almost - that Hellickson would be traded (and for something "good," of course), and since he wasn't, some fans have convinced themselves that there was a real opportunity here, that was missed. Of course, there's not much evidence of that; but fans often seem more comfortable with what they intuit, or imagine "must have been" the case, rather than with accepting that in the absence of evidence, we just don't know, and aren't going to know.

Personally, I give Klentak the benefit of the doubt, unless and until he starts doing stupid things...and not trading Hellickson doesn't qualify as a stupid thing, in my view. There's simply no evidence that any sensible deal was really there.

Further, given the Nola situation, the Phils may have really only wanted to move Hellickson if the return was pretty substantial...and I could understand that. Just a guess, but Matt Klentak may not be much interested in seeing another episode of David Buchanan in red pinstripes. Buchanan's last option year is this year; if he's not on the 25-man roster come April - which he almost certainly will not be - he will become a minor-league free agent. Given that, if I were the GM, Buchanan would be off the 40-man roster this fall (since he'll be off it in April regardless). And Lively isn't ready for the bigs; Morgan's had all of four starts since being optioned to AAA. You just saw Phil Klein. So I could really understand a reluctance to move Hellickson now, for anything less than a clear gain in talent.