2016 Postseason Discussion

[Philsmania]

Having at one time lived in the distant parts of the Chicago area for over forty years, I found the elitism of the Cub fans/North Siders/WGN/Tribune clique difficult to tolerate. They way they put down the White Sox/South Siders/WMAQ/Sun Times folks was disturbing. Cub fans would rather see the Sox lose a WS than root for them. I never sensed that Sox fans were anti-Cubs.

Could it be because the South Side is poorer (and, I'll add, less white)? The neighborhood around Wrigley Field has greatly gentrified, quite possibly because of Wrigley Field. The hipsters want to live in a happening place.

A not too dissimilar factor was at work in Philadelphia when it was a two-team town. The Athletic's were generally the team for the white Protestant set at a time when that demographic was predominant in the city. More than a few have theorized that the Athletics' elephant logo was an Easter egg reference to the Republican Party which overwhelmingly claimed the allegiances of white Protestant Philadelphians. While Connie Mack was himself Irish-Catholic, he was very much of the prim and proper "lace curtain" stripe, per Bruce Kuklick's book on Shibe Park. When white protestants moved out of the city en masse in the '40's and '50's, support for the A's cratered perhaps not coincidentally. Yes, there were a number of other factors as well, namely the rise of the Whiz Kid Phillies and the stodgy insular incompetence of the Mack family alienating the fanbase, but I often think that was one key factor in the demise of the Philadelphia Athletics. The working class, more ethnic core which remained in the city was more Phillies-loyal.
Fascinating! Would be interested in reading more about this social history.

The writer doesn't really cite a source but this article talks about how the Phillies-Athletics allegiances may have been drawn along political partisan lines. Yes, the elephant was created to stick it to John McGraw for calling the team "a white elephant" but at least some say there may have been an additional ulterior political motive.

articles.philly.com/1997-06-13/sports/25525609_1_connie-mack-local-baseball-fans-straw-hat

[schillingfan]

Defnitely a stereotype. Which raises the question, is there harmless stereotyping? I think we can agree that stereotyping by race or sex or religion is harmful and evil. Does stereotyping fans (goodness knows, Philly fans know a lot about how that feels) create harm or is just teasing fun without malice.

I guess I'd reply this way: I'm OK with it's just being "teasing fun without malice" - but that has to cut both ways. If it's just teasing fun without malice to call Red Sox fans "insufferable," then it's just teasing fun without malice to mention Philly fans and throwing snowballs at Santa Claus.

In other words, if you want to stereotype the fans of other teams, then don't whine about it when people stereotype Philadelphia fans. (...and no, this isn't directed at you, SF!) There's recurring whining around here when the inevitable stereotypes about Philly fans are referenced - typically in national broadcasts. If we want to hold national commentators to a higher standard than that...well, we start by living up to that standard ourselves.

That's why I mentioned malice. I think that's the difference between talking about race and being racist. If you are maliciously putting down some other group of people, that's bad. I can say I hate Yankees fans, but I don't, because I don't really know a single Yankees fan who I personally hate. It's definitely jealousy, but I'm sure that with very few exceptions nobody really wishes harm or feels real ill will towards a fan of a hated team. As a Christian I can say such stereotypes of "others" don't really matter unless acted on. A buddhist would tell me to have ill will towards anyone is an evil that harms me. Don't know that any of us are perfect enough to rise above team rivalries. That's ultimately very tribal to Americans.

[andyb]

Back to the postseason: Chooch with a 2-run pinch hit HR for the Dodgers. They carried 3 catchers in the postseason I guess so he could do this.

[LoneStarPhan]

Back to the postseason: Chooch with a 2-run pinch hit HR for the Dodgers. They carried 3 catchers in the postseason I guess so he could do this.

Great to see Chooch get the pinch hit homer but alas, it fell short as the Dodgers go down 8-3 to fall behind the Nationals in the series, 2 games to one. I am still rooting for the Dodgers to advance, but they face two must win games.

I also thought about Ruiz signing again with the Phillies for 2017. I have no idea if he would do it but perhaps they could discuss the possibility of bringing him back to add that depth/experience they seem to feel they need. Both the team and Chooch might be open to another trade to a contender just before the deadline or even an August move. Maybe by the end of July, they would feel comfortable with Rupp backed by Knapp or maybe Alfaro is ready to be brought up to get a large chuck of the starts, sharing the catching duties with Rupp. Another option might be going with Rupp and Ruiz until late July and then trade Rupp at the deadline and call up Alfaro. The key of course is for Alfaro to have a strong first half of the season at AAA.

[Dirk41]

Every team in this postseason has a centerpiece position player
Cubs-Bryant, Giants-Posey, Nats-Harper, Dodgers-Seager, Red Sox- Betts, Indians-Lindor, Rangers-Mazara, Blue Jays-Donaldson. Or some combo of

Is Crawford that guy for the Phillies?

[06hawkalum]

Every team in this postseason has a centerpiece position player
Cubs-Bryant, Giants-Posey, Nats-Harper, Dodgers-Seager, Red Sox- Betts, Indians-Lindor, Rangers-Mazara, Blue Jays-Donaldson. Or some combo of

Is Crawford that guy for the Phillies?

I don't think Mazara belongs in that company yet...he was terrible in the second half. Odor was the centerpiece of that team.

[zambonir]

Case in point about the Cubs, I was really happy to see the underdog Indians knock out the Red Sox, who are actually a pretty fun team full of new faces, but I've seen them succeed more than enough. That will probably be the Cubs in five years. Hopefully it can also be the Phillies (and won't ever be the Mets or Nats. The Braves, OTOH, never quite got as hateable for me because they had the Buffalo Bills thing going. Definitely schadenfreude there, even though I also respected the heck out of those pitchers).

[andyb]

Every team in this postseason has a centerpiece position player
Cubs-Bryant, Giants-Posey, Nats-Harper, Dodgers-Seager, Red Sox- Betts, Indians-Lindor, Rangers-Mazara, Blue Jays-Donaldson. Or some combo of

Is Crawford that guy for the Phillies?

Probably not. He does NOT really project to be a star offensively. His strength is defense paired with offense that has a bit of everything (OBP, speed, 10-15 HR power) but not a lot of any one thing. That is a really valuable player but it is not the centerpiece of a team like a 30+ HR guy is. He might be just as valuable because SS defense is so valuable, but it will be harder to see.

[LoneStarPhan]

Cubs leading Giants 3-2 in bottom of the 8th; Giants get first two on base and the Cubs go to the closer. Absolutely the way I think it should go. This is a key threat for the Giants and has to be put down here or they may not get to use their closer in the 9th.

[LoneStarPhan]

Of course, it doesn't always work. Pence went down swinging (first and last strike swinging at ball way high and out of the strike zone), but Giliaspie lines a ball over the right fielder to drive in 2 runs and give SF their first lead of the night.

[donaldorc]

Having at one time lived in the distant parts of the Chicago area for over forty years, I found the elitism of the Cub fans/North Siders/WGN/Tribune clique difficult to tolerate. They way they put down the White Sox/South Siders/WMAQ/Sun Times folks was disturbing. Cub fans would rather see the Sox lose a WS than root for them. I never sensed that Sox fans were anti-Cubs.

Could it be because the South Side is poorer (and, I'll add, less white)? The neighborhood around Wrigley Field has greatly gentrified, quite possibly because of Wrigley Field. The hipsters want to live in a happening place.

A not too dissimilar factor was at work in Philadelphia when it was a two-team town. The Athletic's were generally the team for the white Protestant set at a time when that demographic was predominant in the city. More than a few have theorized that the Athletics' elephant logo was an Easter egg reference to the Republican Party which overwhelmingly claimed the allegiances of white Protestant Philadelphians. While Connie Mack was himself Irish-Catholic, he was very much of the prim and proper "lace curtain" stripe, per Bruce Kuklick's book on Shibe Park. When white protestants moved out of the city en masse in the '40's and '50's, support for the A's cratered perhaps not coincidentally. Yes, there were a number of other factors as well, namely the rise of the Whiz Kid Phillies and the stodgy insular incompetence of the Mack family alienating the fanbase, but I often think that was one key factor in the demise of the Philadelphia Athletics. The working class, more ethnic core which remained in the city was more Phillies-loyal.
Fascinating! Would be interested in reading more about this social history.

The writer doesn't really cite a source but this article talks about how the Phillies-Athletics allegiances may have been drawn along political partisan lines. Yes, the elephant was created to stick it to John McGraw for calling the team "a white elephant" but at least some say there may have been an additional ulterior political motive.

articles.philly.com/1997-06-13/sports/25525609_1_connie-mack-local-baseball-fans-straw-hat

Thanks for digging up the article and the link. I thought it was a recent article till I read something about Toronto being the first AL team to visit Philly since A's time. Made me check the date, and saw it was from 1997.

Also, if true that Republicans went for the A's and Demos went for the Phillies, it is a surprise to know that my dad was a Democrat. He never talked politics with us. The real reason I suspect, however, is that he was buoyed by the Whizz Kids, as the article states was the case for many Philadelphians at the time. The A's had fallen off the radar.

[Philsmania]

Man, by my estimation, the Cubs-Giants game must have ended at about 2:40 in the morning, East Coast time.

[FMcB]

Some Phillies ghosts of 2008 alive & well....

m.mlb.com/cutfour/2016/10/10/205665700/a-2008-phillies-reunion-broke-out-in-the-2016-nlds

The final lines for the 2008 Phillies quartet were as follows:

Werth: 3-for-4, 2B, HR, 2 RBIs
Ruiz: 1-for-1, HR, 2 RBIs
Utley: 1-for-1
Blanton: 1.2 IP, 1 H, 0 R, 0 BB, 3 K

Not bad for a group of guys famous for winning a championship nearly a decade ago.

[Philsmania]

Every team in this postseason has a centerpiece position player
Cubs-Bryant, Giants-Posey, Nats-Harper, Dodgers-Seager, Red Sox- Betts, Indians-Lindor, Rangers-Mazara, Blue Jays-Donaldson. Or some combo of

Is Crawford that guy for the Phillies?

As of now, it doesn't look like it, unfortunately. Crawford looks like he should be a good ML shortstop. He doesn't have the look of greatness, though or of even equaling or surpassing what Rollins became. However, things can change. At this point fifteen years ago, we all hoped that Burrell would be that player for us. Rollins looked like a good shortstop but who foresaw that he might be a borderline HOFer? Utley was just a prospect. Howard was at Missouri State. Patience. Plenty of things can happen. Maybe Moniak will live up to the 1-1 label. Maybe Alfaro will turn into another Pudge Rodriguez. Maybe Cozens will be what we hoped Burrell would be (not that Burrell was bad, he just wasn't the superstar we thought he would be). We shall see.

[Philsmania]

Some Phillies ghosts of 2008 alive & well....

m.mlb.com/cutfour/2016/10/10/205665700/a-2008-phillies-reunion-broke-out-in-the-2016-nlds

[quote]The final lines for the 2008 Phillies quartet were as follows:

Werth: 3-for-4, 2B, HR, 2 RBIs
Ruiz: 1-for-1, HR, 2 RBIs
Utley: 1-for-1
Blanton: 1.2 IP, 1 H, 0 R, 0 BB, 3 K

Not bad for a group of guys famous for winning a championship nearly a decade ago.[/quote]

See also Happ in the ALCS and Hamels dispatched from the ALDS. Interestingly, most of the 2008 Phillies who are still active are in the Postseason. Only Howard and Madson had to watch the Postseason on TV. Six of the eight members of that team still on ML rosters at the end of the season are now in the Postseason. Perhaps that says something about that team. Then there's Rollins and Victorino who have not yet retired and indicated a desire to extend their careers but haven't been with an organization since June.

If the Nats get by the Dodgers and Cubs or Giants and make the WS, that would also fulfill a dubious record for the Phillies in that every postseason starting outfielder for the 2007-11 Phillies will have at least played in the WS for one of their subsequent ports of call. Rowand, Burrell and Pence with the Giants, Victorino with the Red Sox, Ibanez with the Royals and, if that happens, Werth with the Nationals.

[arpax]

Chase Utley you are still the man. Chase hits a 2 out, 2 strike RBI single that gives the Dodgers a 6-5 lead as that game heads to the 9th

[LoneStarPhan]

Moore pitches 8 innings of 2 hit, 2 walk, 2 run ball for the Giants, but leaves after 8 innings leading 5-2. Four relievers later, the Cubs have the game tied with no outs in the 9th.

Cubs now up 6-5 with one out in the 9th.

If you want to win, you must have a strong and deep bullpen.

Giant starter gives up 2 hits in 8 innings; Giant bullpen gives up 4 hits in one inning.

Cubs leading, 6-5 going to the bottom of the ninth.

Chapman pitches the bottom of the 9th for Chicago: 0 hits, 0 runs, 0 walks, 3 Ks.

Cubs move on and will play the winner of the Nationals-Dodgers game 5.

[donaldorc]

Moore pitches 8 innings of 2 hit, 2 walk, 2 run ball for the Giants, but leaves after 8 innings leading 5-2. Four relievers later, the Cubs have the game tied with no outs in the 9th.

Cubs now up 6-5 with one out in the 9th.

If you want to win, you must have a strong and deep bullpen.

Giant starter gives up 2 hits in 8 innings; Giant bullpen gives up 4 hits in one inning.

Cubs leading, 6-5 going to the bottom of the ninth.

Chapman pitches the bottom of the 9th for Chicago: 0 hits, 0 runs, 0 walks, 3 Ks.

Cubs move on and will play the winner of the Nationals-Dodgers game 5.

Here in Switzerland, when I got up in the morning, the Cubs-Giants game was still on. So I got to listen to the ninth inning, and since I am rooting for the Cubs, I couldn't have had a better start to my day!

[DurhamBull]

Chase Utley you are still the man. Chase hits a 2 out, 2 strike RBI single that gives the Dodgers a 6-5 lead as that game heads to the 9th

Plus an outstanding play to end the game.

[Philsmania]

Moore pitches 8 innings of 2 hit, 2 walk, 2 run ball for the Giants, but leaves after 8 innings leading 5-2. Four relievers later, the Cubs have the game tied with no outs in the 9th.

Cubs now up 6-5 with one out in the 9th.

If you want to win, you must have a strong and deep bullpen.

Giant starter gives up 2 hits in 8 innings; Giant bullpen gives up 4 hits in one inning.

Cubs leading, 6-5 going to the bottom of the ninth.

Chapman pitches the bottom of the 9th for Chicago: 0 hits, 0 runs, 0 walks, 3 Ks.

Cubs move on and will play the winner of the Nationals-Dodgers game 5.

I often say that one thing that the '93 World Series taught me is that when you get to October, the team with the best bullpen that makes it there is often the team that wins it all. Ward and Timlin at the back end of the Blue Jays bullpen got it done while Williams, Andersen and West at the back end of the Phillies bullpen did not. Therein lay the difference in the '93 WS. Few realize that the '93 Phillies were only three outs short of a World Championship. If only that final out of the top of the 8th inning in Game 4 came four batters sooner and the last two outs of the 9th inning of Game 6 came at all. Look at the Yankees with Rivera and Nelson. Heck, look at the '08 Phillies with the Romero-Madson-Lidge back end and a good supporting cast of Eyre, Durbin & Condrey. A great bullpen won't get you to October but it can get you a ring if you make there.