The Unending Sixers Thread

[bigegypt0417]

We will see, he's saying the right things.
It comes down to whether he learned from his mistakes in Toronto or repeats them.

the mistakes of building a winner?

GM's make mistakes and the pressure to win makes you make deals that sometimes don't work out. I'm not sure that part of winning is something you've caught on to. No one builds a winner from within without spending assets and money on outside players.

Building a winner? He inherited a 21-year-old Chris Bosh, a ton of cap space, the #1 pick in the draft, and the runner up to rookie of the year and he built a 240-318 record with one playoff appearance. Low bar.

So?

So if he builds a winner here you'll say the same thing?

My point is, he didn't build a winner.

He did. Just because he had the tools to do it doesn't mean he didn't. I'm not sure what your point is unless this is a matter of semantics...

[bigegypt0417]

allentown, you'd have to sign a decent backcourt, and many FAs wouldn't want to come here unless Embiid has already proven healthy. Might not be as easy as you think.

Also, the colangelo name may help you bring in those free agents you may want.

To think this team is close to a finished product isn't reality...

Nonsense. He signed Steve Nash becuase he offered him $20 million more than anyone else. He signed Hedo Turkoglu because he offered more many than anyone else was willing to give a 31-year-old temperamental problem. Chris Bosh left because he couldn't build a winner around him. The Colangelo Name having an impact on free agency is one big myth.

excellent. I'm glad you made you noticed my nonsense. I think we can cherry pick the moves of any GM as much as we want. He's replacing a GM that has yet to show zero impact on a franchise. I was on board with the plan but he's not replacing a GM who built a winner. Looking at his previous bosses points to flaws as well. Wasn't James Harden the lynchpin of his sell to the new owners?

[dbodner]

allentown, you'd have to sign a decent backcourt, and many FAs wouldn't want to come here unless Embiid has already proven healthy. Might not be as easy as you think.

Also, the colangelo name may help you bring in those free agents you may want.

To think this team is close to a finished product isn't reality...

Nonsense. He signed Steve Nash becuase he offered him $20 million more than anyone else. He signed Hedo Turkoglu because he offered more many than anyone else was willing to give a 31-year-old temperamental problem. Chris Bosh left because he couldn't build a winner around him. The Colangelo Name having an impact on free agency is one big myth.

excellent. I'm glad you made you noticed my nonsense. I think we can cherry pick the moves of any GM as much as we want. He's replacing a GM that has yet to show zero impact on a franchise. I was on board with the plan but he's not replacing a GM who built a winner. Looking at his previous bosses points to flaws as well. Wasn't James Harden the lynchpin of his sell to the new owners?

So wait, going 240-318 (43.0% winning percentage), with one playoff appearance in 7 years in Toronto is "building a winner", but winning 56 games and getting to the conference finals is not?

[dbodner]

the mistakes of building a winner?

GM's make mistakes and the pressure to win makes you make deals that sometimes don't work out. I'm not sure that part of winning is something you've caught on to. No one builds a winner from within without spending assets and money on outside players.

Building a winner? He inherited a 21-year-old Chris Bosh, a ton of cap space, the #1 pick in the draft, and the runner up to rookie of the year and he built a 240-318 record with one playoff appearance. Low bar.

So?

So if he builds a winner here you'll say the same thing?

My point is, he didn't build a winner.

He did. Just because he had the tools to do it doesn't mean he didn't. I'm not sure what your point is unless this is a matter of semantics...

My point is nobody who actually followed the situation would call a 240-318 record, with 1 playoff appearance in 7 years, "building a winner" in Toronto.

[bigegypt0417]

quote="dbodner"]

the mistakes of building a winner?

GM's make mistakes and the pressure to win makes you make deals that sometimes don't work out. I'm not sure that part of winning is something you've caught on to. No one builds a winner from within without spending assets and money on outside players.

Building a winner? He inherited a 21-year-old Chris Bosh, a ton of cap space, the #1 pick in the draft, and the runner up to rookie of the year and he built a 240-318 record with one playoff appearance. Low bar.

So?

So if he builds a winner here you'll say the same thing?

My point is, he didn't build a winner.

He did. Just because he had the tools to do it doesn't mean he didn't. I'm not sure what your point is unless this is a matter of semantics...

My point is nobody who actually followed the situation would call a 240-318 record, with 1 playoff appearance in 7 years, "building a winner" in Toronto.

Ah, so we're just going to skip phoenix?

convenient. I get it, you don't like the move and you spoke at length about the process. We're somewhere else now but if you want to ignore significant information to make your point, then rock on.

[dbodner]

Ah, so we're just going to skip phoenix?

convenient. I get it, you don't like the move and you spoke at length about the process. We're somewhere else now but if you want to ignore significant information to make your point, then rock on.

Dude, the post you responded to directly said "learning from his mistakes in Toronto".

It comes down to whether he learned from his mistakes in Toronto or repeats them.

To which you said:

the mistakes of building a winner?

You responded to a post about his mistakes in Toronto. Not me! I didn't set this topic of conversation, I responded to it! It's not me "ignoring significant information", it's me staying on point to the topic being discussed.

If somebody said he made mistakes in Toronto, then you say "what mistakes, he built a winner", it's fair for me to challenge whether he actually built a winner in Toronto.

[bigegypt0417]

Ah, so we're just going to skip phoenix?

convenient. I get it, you don't like the move and you spoke at length about the process. We're somewhere else now but if you want to ignore significant information to make your point, then rock on.

Dude, the post you responded to directly said "learning from his mistakes in Toronto".

[quote]It comes down to whether he learned from his mistakes in Toronto or repeats them.[/quote]

To which you said:

[quote]the mistakes of building a winner?[/quote]

You responded to a post about his mistakes in Toronto. Not me! I didn't set this topic of conversation, I responded to it! It's not me "ignoring significant information", it's me staying on point to the topic being discussed.

If somebody said he made mistakes in Toronto, then you say "what mistakes, he built a winner", it's fair for me to challenge whether he actually built a winner in Toronto.

i guess i was looking at BC for his entire career and not just picking the one franchise.

i think I'm tired of reading how Sam Hinkie was some misunderstood genius and we're floating back in to the abyss. Sam Hinkie had not shown anything more than an ability to accumulate picks and hope he gets a chance at a franchise player. His net results are question marks and 3 firsts in a draft that probably has 2 players worth talking about.

[bigegypt0417]

Sources: Ned Cohen, NBA's Assoc. VP of Basketball Operations, joining 76ers front office in high-ranking basketball job. Significant coup

Cohen's been one of most respected minds in basketball ops around league, seen as a possible future GM. Innovative hire for Bryan Colangelo

[Austinfan]

I think anyone who has even a clue about the NBA knew it would take three years of tanking before the turnaround could start.
Not to get the #1 pick, that was always a matter of luck, but accumulating the quantity of assets needed to be able to build a team.
Bryan even admitted to "tanking" in Toronto once he initiated a true rebuild, because his "win now" moves had stripped the franchise of the assets to build a consistently competitive team.

What Hinkie accomplished was to accumulate a tremendous amount of assets in a relatively short period.
Most rebuilds are gradual, and often sputter, see Minnesota for oh, the last fifteen years!
Now if you're lucky, you can trade two aging stars to Billy King for a king's ransom.
But usually you have to do it the way Hinkie did it, one trade, one bad contract absorbed, at a time.

Now we'll see if Bryan learned from his Toronto experience.
He's been given the same opportunity, money, draft picks, the chance to build a great team.

As far as signing FAs, the "C" name means nothing, hiring a Silver lackey means nothing.
Agents want to maximize the money but also keep their clients happy.
They'd negotiate with the Devil if it meant a few million more. And they wouldn't cut Jesus a break.
Right now in the NBA, the maximum salary rules makes it impossible to get a top FA to come to a team like the Sixers until they're a serious contender.
The other alternative is to overpay second tier guys at a point in their career when they start to decline (NBA players peak like other athletes, between ages 25-29, look at Jordan or James or any other star and compare their 25-29 performance to 31-34).

The trick is to use your assets to trade for players entering their prime, sign them to value level extensions to age 30, and then replace them as they hit their declining years instead of overpaying. Same logic as in any sport - overpay for older players and watch younger players leave because the cap prevents you from keeping them.

[bigegypt0417]

Interesting...

thesixersense.com/2016/05/05/wh ... hia-76ers/

[bkeich]

The immediate future of the Sixers will be determined Tuesday. In a way this will be a very telling moment.

Where will our pick fall (1-4) and will Colangelo do something stupid with it? Trading it for a veteran would fall under the "something stupid" category IMHO. I would like Simmons.

Will the Lakers pick go to us this year. I hope so as I fear the Lakers will find a way to improve next year without the albatross of Kobe on the team.

Adding Saric is also key this offseason. We need to understand what he is.

Noel is a FA at the end of the year I believe. Do they resign him?

At what point do we spend some of the Salary Cap?

Counting Embiid we could easily add 4 quality players to a team that actually has aa few nice pieces already. We could have the most talent in the 1-8 positions we have seen in a very long time, it is just a shame Hinkie will never get the credit for what he built.

[bigegypt0417]

The immediate future of the Sixers will be determined Tuesday. In a way this will be a very telling moment.

Where will our pick fall (1-4) and will Colangelo do something stupid with it? Trading it for a veteran would fall under the "something stupid" category IMHO. I would like Simmons.

If you end up at 3 or 4, is it still stupid? this is widely thought of as a two person draft at the top so I'm not sure your blanket statement makes sense. At some point the sixers need to start thinking about veterans on this team. they also have a significant asset in their pick swap with the kings. If a team is looking to move into the lottery and has a player to move you should think about it.

[Austinfan]

Depends what Veteran:
1) you don't want a mercenary malcontent, bad influence on a young team
2) you don't want a 30 year old who is starting to break down (Bryan made that mistake more than once in Toronto)

If you can find a 24-25 year old veteran who's blocked from starting and has that kind of potential, plus the right intangibles, and is a good fit, yes, that's the point of accumulating assets, to use them to add players who are good fits. But don't overpay.

This team is going to win 20+-30 games in any case, 5 more wins doesn't make them a playoff team, you're not going to be able to obtain a difference maker, so don't waste resources that could put you over the top in two years (that 2018/2019 Sacramento pick could add the "missing piece.").

If Embiid is healthy, and can play 25-30 minutes a night, this is a 30 win team regardless of who they add, he's going to be that good.
Add Saric, Jah with a year of experience, and a top pick (if they don't get the top two, they'll still get a solid guard for the 8 man rotation), and you have a good start.

If I'm trading, I'm looking to move some of my backups plus the OKC and/or Miami pick for guards.
Say Holmes, Canaan and one of the 1st round picks for a solid second tier guard.
And I'd be looking to sign a solid role player in FA (but don't give a big contract to a second tier, aging "name").

As Houston shows, having two "stars" doesn't do much good if they're not the right stars, and they don't have a good supporting cast.
Get your stars in the draft, build a solid supporting cast around them, and don't go for quick fixes.

[bigegypt0417]

As Houston shows, having two "stars" doesn't do much good if they're not the right stars, and they don't have a good supporting cast.
Get your stars in the draft, build a solid supporting cast around them, and don't go for quick fixes.

Well, of course you have to pick the right players. but you basically went out and picked an example of when it doesn't work out while ignoring all the times it does. the sixers pretty much have much of the supporting cast already.

Picking Houston was fun too because of who takes credit for trading for one of those stars...

[Squire]

We could really use some luck tomorrow. We really need 1 or 2. I'm happy to have the Lakers pick roll over to next year though. That being said, if the Lakers and/or Celtics end up ahead of us I fully reserve my right to claim that the entire thing is rigged against us and in favor of more preferred franchises.

[bigegypt0417]

We could really use some luck tomorrow. We really need 1 or 2. I'm happy to have the Lakers pick roll over to next year though. That being said, if the Lakers and/or Celtics end up ahead of us I fully reserve my right to claim that the entire thing is rigged against us and in favor of more preferred franchises.

Well, I would share that if it wasn't for the fact Cleveland has been immensely lucky in the draft and the T-wolves got towns.

the perfect scenario so we can see what we have is the sixers get the lakers and their pick. At that point we can move on to building the team we want to see. A tiny bone in a very large man holds the key to how this works out. If it does, we have our franchise player and we can build around that.

[Squire]

We could really use some luck tomorrow. We really need 1 or 2. I'm happy to have the Lakers pick roll over to next year though. That being said, if the Lakers and/or Celtics end up ahead of us I fully reserve my right to claim that the entire thing is rigged against us and in favor of more preferred franchises.

Well, I would share that if it wasn't for the fact Cleveland has been immensely lucky in the draft and the T-wolves got towns.

the perfect scenario so we can see what we have is the sixers get the lakers and their pick. At that point we can move on to building the team we want to see. A tiny bone in a very large man holds the key to how this works out. If it does, we have our franchise player and we can build around that.

On that we agree. Embiid is the key. If we get 1 (and thus presumably Simmons) I could see us making Okafor immediately available for a veteran-ish 1 or 2 (or for a pick that gets us Murray or Dunn, again assuming that the Laker pick rolls and doesn't convey).

[Austinfan]

They shouldn't be in a hurry to trade Jah, people for some reason look at his rookie season and assume no upside.
I mean he's 20 years old, average 17 ppg, 7 Rb, 1.2 blocked shots as a rookie.
Yes, his defense needs works, but a lot of that was playing zone in college and being coached to avoid fouls.
But as a rookie he made tremendous strides, he actually shot better from 3-16 feet better than anyone else on the team other than McConnell!
In the NBA his future is as a true PF, not a rim protector, and he's been reshaping his body.
With his strength, he'll be hard to post up, and with his reach, he can contest outside shots (one myth that many NBA players fall for is you have to block those shots, actually, just contesting them reduces shooting % by as much as 10%).

The kind of trade proposals are so undervalued they'd be crazy to move him this offseason.
If he flatlines next year he's still worth a top 10 pick, maybe a top 5, at worst he's a more athletic version of Randolph, that still has a lot of value.
If he slims down further, improves his defense and keeps stretching his shooting range, he can be a perenniel Allstar at PF.

[bigegypt0417]

They shouldn't be in a hurry to trade Jah, people for some reason look at his rookie season and assume no upside.
I mean he's 20 years old, average 17 ppg, 7 Rb, 1.2 blocked shots as a rookie.
Yes, his defense needs works, but a lot of that was playing zone in college and being coached to avoid fouls.
But as a rookie he made tremendous strides, he actually shot better from 3-16 feet better than anyone else on the team other than McConnell!
In the NBA his future is as a true PF, not a rim protector, and he's been reshaping his body.
With his strength, he'll be hard to post up, and with his reach, he can contest outside shots (one myth that many NBA players fall for is you have to block those shots, actually, just contesting them reduces shooting % by as much as 10%).

The kind of trade proposals are so undervalued they'd be crazy to move him this offseason.
If he flatlines next year he's still worth a top 10 pick, maybe a top 5, at worst he's a more athletic version of Randolph, that still has a lot of value.
If he slims down further, improves his defense and keeps stretching his shooting range, he can be a perenniel Allstar at PF.

No one is saying he has no upside. I don't believe that's ever been said. What the issue is they may have too many big men and one has to go. Okafor probably holds the most value of those players and if he brings you back a valuable piece and picks, you have to entertain the idea.

[phillychuck]

To many teams Noel may be just as valuable as Okafor, if not more so. The only really negative about trading for Noel is his contract situation as compared to Okafor's. Noel is a rim protecting big guy who is athletic and can run. Cavs, for example, would kill for him in the playoffs.