Hall of Fame Discussion 2022 and Beyond

[LegoDoom]

Jackson was also robbed of some years to keep his WAR down. His 1920 bWAR was 7.5.

The issue is "why" he was robbed. An injury is not necessarily the player's fault. Military service is not the player's fault. A voter could easily take a short career guy like Jackson and blame the shortness of his career on the player. We just don't know how voters will feel about that. Or the PED guys in the 50-70 WAR range when we let the obvious ones in (Bonds, Clemens, ARod).

Let me ask you a question.... do you think Shoeless Joe was robbed?

His reasoning always seemed much worse than the rest.

[BostonRoss]

WAR is not the only criterion for Hall of Fame election. Lou Whitaker has 75 WAR, within 5 of Rose, and more than dozens of Hall of Famers. Ichiro has 60 WAR. People get in by being really good at a small number of things. Joe Jackson was one of the two or three top hitters in the 1910s.

[andyb]

I really don't know if he was robbed. He clearly knew about the plot even if he generally played to win. He was probably a dumb kid being taken advantage of, but he had to have known the Series was being thrown and he did nothing about it.

And who really knows how accurate the history and news reports are from that era? There were probably more series altered by gamblers that we don't know about (as well as multiple games and prop bets today being altered that we don't know about). The gambling content might be the thing that makes me not get the new ESPN app. I really wish I never see "today's prop bet" again in a baseball telecast. That is now a staple of every single national and local telecast and I hate it.

[andyb]

Ichiro has 60 WAR.

Ichiro is another short career guy that gets credit for his career being shorter for reasons not his fault. He gets over 80 WAR if he starts his career at age 20-22 over here (he would have been in the minors a bit longer here than in Japan).

Whitaker should be in. That is just a mistake. Bobby Grich too. The players that generated lots of WAR in multiple areas beyond counting stats always got hurt in earlier HOF votes.

[BostonRoss]

Ichiro had 19 years in MLB. He’d have gotten in if he had never played in Japan.

Guys with relatively low WAR get in all the time. Dick Allen, Vlad Guerrero, etc. Shoeless Joe is just as qualified as many Hall of Famers. If he doesn’t get in, it’s because of one thing only.

I agree that Whitaker and Grich belong.

[zambonir]

Hall statement

"The National Baseball Hall of Fame has always maintained that anyone removed from Baseball’s permanently ineligible list will become eligible for Hall of Fame consideration," Clark said in the statement. "Major League Baseball’s decision to remove deceased individuals from the permanently ineligible list will allow for the Hall of Fame candidacy of such individuals to now be considered. The Historical Overview Committee will develop the ballot of eight names for the Classic Baseball Era Committee – which evaluates candidates who made their greatest impact on the game prior to 1980 – to vote on when it meets next in December 2027."

https://www.mlb.com/news/hall-of-fame-statement-on-mlb-decision-about-permanent-ineligibility-status-after-death

[zambonir]

Well okay then

According to ESPN sources, Manfred personally called Trump and delivered the news while Trump traveled in Saudi Arabia.

Donald Trump gets Pete Rose’s permanent ban lifted. So, what’s in it for Trump?...

[julio]

Kissing the ring…or something.

[Philsmania]

An ambassadorship for Manfred?

[julio]

Post him to Nambia.

[andyb]

An ambassadorship for Manfred?

More likely a continued antitrust exemption and greasing the wheels on various stadium projects.

[dcsman]

Post him to Nambia.

What did Nambia do to deserve that?

Also, Mike Schmidt stated: “It’s a great day for baseball …” Ugh! I can’t believe this guy was my boyhood hero. It’s not a great day for baseball. It’s just another day that allows people to move on. Rose deserves the Hall based on his playing stats but he was a POS otherwise. Whatever. I wish Mike Schmidt would go away.

[julio]

What did Nambia do to deserve that?

Fell off the face of the earth?

[andyb]

Looking at the players reinstated now the only other possible HOFer beyond Rose and Jackson is Eddie Cicotte.

Eddie Cicotte Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More |...

57.9 WAR. Banned at age 36 but he was coming off a 5 WAR season and he was Cy Young quality in 1919. He might have ended up in the 70 WAR range too.

I don't think anybody will be elected unless the Trump lobbying gets ridiculous, but Cicotte really fits the shortened career criteria of some of the other players currently in if we assumed a normal end to his career. Kind of funny to look at the stats these days and see his K rate plummeting from 3.2/9 to 2.6/9 and see he is on the downward progression.

[Lucky_Beagle]

I understand the thinking on those injured who lost a few years, but what about the player who got hurt in year 2 and would have put up worthy numbers? I know one will never know and its kinda of a joke, however those who were injured may have fallen off a cliff (performance wise) and not made it with their additional years of stats.

[VoteForKalas]

My take on Rose is widely known on here. I continue to hope he does not get elected to the HOF.

I think the pertinent question of why this was done and what problem did reinstating him resolve remains unanswered. Manfred likely has no answer for that as it appears to be a political decision and not one based on evidence or to address a legitimate problem in the game.

Nothing has changed about Rule 21(d), which states very clearly:

"Any player, umpire, or Club or League official or employee, who shall bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in connection with which the bettor has a duty to perform, shall be declared permanently ineligible."

Nothing has changed about what Rose did to willfully and repeatedly violate that rule. He broke it as a player and a manager.

Everyone in baseball knew the rule including Rose and, not only did he do it anyway, he lied about it for years, smeared anyone who dared hold him accountable and used it to make money for himself. No wonder Trump likes him.

Then, finally, in 2004 he admitted what everyone else knew only because he thought he would be reinstated, not because he had an ethical epiphany or felt badly about what he did to the game, to his family or to the fans.

Manfred has added to the stain on the game that Rose started with this decision IMO. I hope the Classic Committee takes this very seriously and understands the consequences for the sport they love if they vote him in.

[zambonir]

Manfred certainly found a way to lawyer through that by saying you can't be ineligible if you're dead. I'm just not sure the Hall should have ever made that MLB rule part of their criteria. It was adopted in 1991 specifically to target Rose, two years after his ban, because they knew he'd probably get in.

Shoeless Joe actually was on the HOF ballot in the '30s and didn't get much support (less than 1% in two different years). The Veterans committee still had 50 years to consider him too.

The character clause is and always was enough to keep either of them out should the voters decide that should be the case, just as they have so far in the main balloting for Bonds and Clemens (and, clearly for some, Curt Schilling).

[zambonir]

So, let's take a poll. You have been appointed one of the 16 members of the Classic Committee of the Baseball Hall of Fame. How would you vote?

• I would vote for Pete Rose. No problem.
• I would vote against Pete Rose. No way, no how.
• I would vote for Pete Rose based on his baseball accomplishments, but the Hall says to also consider "integrity, sportsmanship, character..." and therefore cannot.

Show results

[BostonRoss]

It's apparent that many people care a lot about the Hall of Fame from all the discussion here. But we don't all agree on exactly what it should be. Some people think that it should simply be a record of baseball history while others believe that the members should simply be the best players (and managers, etc.). Others believe that election is a honor to be bestowed on the worthy, and that worthiness may include a measure of the person's character.

Nobody is wrong, or right. The Hall itself seems to fall into the "worthy" group, and as a private institution they get to say though they are smart enough to leave the selection to others. There are certainly "unworthy" members of the Hall, in terms of character or not really being good or famous enough. The group of 16 who voted for Harold Baines may be the only group that could be assembled outside of Baines' family where three quarters of them think Harold belongs.

I respect all of the opinions expressed above though I disagree with many of them. Where I have an issue is when someone dismisses the opinions of others by saying things like it's a joke/travesty that Rose, or Bonds, or whoever is not in the Hall of Fame. Someone who feels that character or following the rules matters has just as valid an opinion.

[zambonir]

I would still like to think it will be hard for 12 people to vote for him. If it was all former players and managers, probably not so much.

Within MLB, a mostly celebratory tone for Pete Rose: ‘He belongs in the Hall of...

The highlights:

Craig Counsell, Ron Washington and Aaron Boone all said he should be in the Hall. Boone called Pete Rose Jr. to congratulate him (their parents were teammates, of course).

Jim Leyland says he thinks Pete and Bonds are both HOFers based solely on playing but obviously that's not the issue. Bochy said he was glad the candidacy is being considered but declined to say if he would vote him in.

David Wright said the news was "great." Former Phillie Robert Stock did a tweet about MLB's gambling relationships.