General Discussion

Austinfan 2017-06-22 15:29:17 UTC #861

Actually, losing in extra innings is good, b/c you're competitive.
Getting shellacked on a regular basis, as they were a few weeks ago, is much worse.

bigegypt0417 2017-06-22 16:05:50 UTC #862

blind squirrels and nuts.

Austinfan 2017-06-22 16:26:38 UTC #863

Nah, "Little Miss Sunshine."

bkeich 2017-06-22 23:43:00 UTC #864

Since I don't really believe that what I say has any "curse" or effect on eventual outcomes, it is time we really start to look at the season Neshek is having. It is actually incredible, even Tug McGraw's best seasons or any other reliever can't touch it so far.

At the start of the season I suggested in one thread that the best way to look at a reliever's season would be percentage of games a pitcher does not give up a run, much better than ERA since one bad inning can really mess up ERA because of small sample size.

Neshek, who actually has a 2.78 career ERA and a 1.078 WHIP, which are incredible numbers

This season, 2-1, 0.64 ERA, 28 IP, 25 K, 0.473 OPS, 0.786 WHIP

In 30 appearances he has given up a run in 1 game so far.

Honestly, if they gave a "Reliever of the Year" award he would be not just a strong candidate, but maybe a lock so far in the NL. He doesnt get the press of having a ton of saves, but no reliever has been more effective in the last decade than he has been so far.

Scott Eyre's last season (with the Phillies) was similar in a way, he had great stats, but when you looked at the game logs it was even more impressive. He gave up earned runs in only 2 games out of 42 (he gave up 4 runs in one of those games so his ERA was actually 1.50 for the year, but that did not really reflect how he pitched)

I am honestly starting to think that Neshek does not get the press he deserves because of his odd throwing motion. No one thinks it will work, and maybe if he threw 200 innings a year it would not, but there is no way to avoid the statement that in the 411 career innings he has pitched he has been extremely effective. Sometimes deception and guile are more important than velocity and "stuff".

Lucky_Beagle 2017-06-23 02:53:10 UTC #865

I just read somewhere Leiter is traveling with the team and is expected to be named to start one of the games in Arizona. Can someone verify this with an accurate article?

Here I found it:

Leiter to start

Mark Leiter Jr. will start for the Phillies on Friday as they open a four-game series in Arizona. It will be Leiter's first major-league start after making 12 appearances this season out of the bullpen. The righthander takes the place of Jerad Eickhoff, who was placed on the disabled list Tuesday with back soreness. Eickhoff will likely miss more than one start. The Phillies will have to free a spot on the 25-man roster to make room for Leiter.

EastFallowfield 2017-06-23 14:39:48 UTC #866

Neshek doesn't seem to pitch enough to be an All Star. If you're gonna be a non-closer All Star you really need to rack up the innings.

California_Dreamin 2017-06-23 16:04:48 UTC #867

There is much discussion lately about how the Phils will solve their outfield dilemma when it seems they have too many OFers [Altherr, Herrera, Perkins, Cozens, Pullin, Williams, Fisher, opps sorry!] and not enough spots to play them all.

As much as it pains me to say this, I suspect they may reach the conclusion that dealing Herrera is their best option. Long time readers of this site know I was a charter member of the Herrera Will Someday Win a Batting Title club and still think he has a wealth of untapped talent. But in an organization that now stresses so many of the things that Herrera seems to lack the most [plate discipline, drawing walks, playing intelligently] my guess is that they are right now seriously considering the possibility of actively putting Herrera on the market.

In reality, it does make sense. A] He is an enormous talent who will bring back a good value and probably young at that, B] he has a contract that is team friendly and will only continue to look better if he ever harnesses his unquestioned talent and C] its very likely that many teams believes its as much the fault of the Phils as it is Herrera that he makes so many mental mistakes. They might rightly feel that with proper coaching he can become an annual All Star candidate.

Look, I want to make it clear that I am in the C camp right now...FAR too many skilled young players have not improved under this coaching staff and I place the blame squarely on Peter Mac. I now understand why he never got a managerial position before and I believe the Phils braintrust is coming to the same conclusion.

In fact I believe they already had doubts when the gave him that extension but wanted to see if having a non lame duck manager in the dugout might spur the players to greater efforts. Sadly, just the opposite has happened and in my mind far too many players have been thrown under the bus by Peter Mac to suit my pleasures.

I do predict this...either Herrera or Peter Mac will go. I do not think they can co-exist. Watch for the Phils to quietly place Herrera on the market this July to at least gauge the interest.

Austinfan 2017-06-23 16:38:27 UTC #868

There is no rush to do anything, as much as people don't want to maintain the status quo.
Quinn is a question mark, Tocci is two years from Philly, Pullin, Cozens and Williams have a lot of development to do before they're ML ready.
Haseley and Moniak are three years away (Clearwater 2018, Reading 2019, Lehigh/call up 2020).
So I wouldn't think about dealing Herrera for at least a year, maybe two, see how he develops, how the kids develop.

Same thing with Hernandez and Galvis, remember that some wanted to trade Galvis and rush Crawford, now Galvis may be the better long-term option.
Hernandez has a lot of value, but let's see Kingery perform in Lehigh for at least a half season before rushing into any deals.
Let's see how Joseph finishes the season before deciding between him and Hoskins.

There's just no urgency to make changes, TRUST THE PROCESS.

Philsmania 2017-06-23 16:55:17 UTC #869

But, someone from the Phillies has to go and he is the only one who really looks worthy, aside from Altherr if one was to be charitable toward him.

Philsmania 2017-06-23 16:58:16 UTC #870

California_Dreamin:

There is much discussion lately about how the Phils will solve their outfield dilemma when it seems they have too many OFers [Altherr, Herrera, Perkins, Cozens, Pullin, Williams, Fisher, opps sorry!] and not enough spots to play them all.

As much as it pains me to say this, I suspect they may reach the conclusion that dealing Herrera is their best option. Long time readers of this site know I was a charter member of the Herrera Will Someday Win a Batting Title club and still think he has a wealth of untapped talent. But in an organization that now stresses so many of the things that Herrera seems to lack the most [plate discipline, drawing walks, playing intelligently] my guess is that they are right now seriously considering the possibility of actively putting Herrera on the market.

In reality, it does make sense. A] He is an enormous talent who will bring back a good value and probably young at that, B] he has a contract that is team friendly and will only continue to look better if he ever harnesses his unquestioned talent and C] its very likely that many teams believes its as much the fault of the Phils as it is Herrera that he makes so many mental mistakes. They might rightly feel that with proper coaching he can become an annual All Star candidate.

Look, I want to make it clear that I am in the C camp right now...FAR too many skilled young players have not improved under this coaching staff and I place the blame squarely on Peter Mac. I now understand why he never got a managerial position before and I believe the Phils braintrust is coming to the same conclusion.

In fact I believe they already had doubts when the gave him that extension but wanted to see if having a non lame duck manager in the dugout might spur the players to greater efforts. Sadly, just the opposite has happened and in my mind far too many players have been thrown under the bus by Peter Mac to suit my pleasures.

I do predict this...either Herrera or Peter Mac will go. I do not think they can co-exist. Watch for the Phils to quietly place Herrera on the market this July to at least gauge the interest.

The question is whether Herrera is coachable. Yes, it is entirely possible that Herrera and Mackanin and his staff are oil and water. But, it's also possible that he really is something of a loopy fellow whom no coaching staff will get through to. I agree that trading him may be premature at this point. But, if he keeps it up with a new set of eyes on him and a new voice speaking to him after Makanin, I would suspect that the problem lies with him.

Soloman_grundy 2017-06-23 17:12:58 UTC #871

Mackanin is losing this team. I don't care what people say, the current coaching staff is not the right fit for this team. I have already outlined my stance on McClure adnaseum how he still has a job is beyond me.

Slinging_Southpaw 2017-06-23 17:38:31 UTC #872

I agree with CD, also think the Cubs would be the perfect fit, with their revolving door at CF and the lead-off position.

VoteForKalas 2017-06-23 18:44:55 UTC #874

As AF states, there is zero rush to do anything. There is plenty of time for Herrera to turn around this season and for the other options to show they belong in the OF conversation or not.

I do not see much evidence the Phillies are pushing players to walk more, have better plate discipline or play smart. In fact, many of their moves appear to contradict such a theory.

Why, for example, would the Phillies sign Saunders who holds a career OBP of .305 and 253 BB over 9 years? Why wouldn't Franco be on the same hot seat? Why would Joseph continue to get chances?

Plus, if the Phillies were pushing such approaches, Herrera would put major check marks in two out of the three boxes and thus not be someone they would be likely to trade/move. His OBP and walks are among the best on the team the last two seasons. Sure, he is struggling more this year, but we are only 69 games in.

Austinfan 2017-06-23 18:52:09 UTC #875

Saunders was a LH power bat they hoped to flip in July.

Joseph is overly aggressive, but they have been working with him on that, just shows how little the previous regime valued plate discipline, looking at the prospects they traded for, not many guys who had good BB/K ratios.

Stairs has been working with Franco, getting him to hit the ball to the opposite field, but not every player makes an overnight transformation, some can, others need an extended period to break habits that might be a decade old, still others simply can't do it.

andyb 2017-06-23 18:55:17 UTC #876

Saunders walk rate was decent. Over 10% in the 2013-2016 period. The low number of BBs total is more a function of him being hurt all the time. This year may have been him getting old as the decline in walk rate was significant.

Not sure anyone here was advocating "rushing" anything. Obviously we want to wait for the right time to make a trade. We should not trade Herrera at a low point which is where we are now. I have always thought that Herrera was not the ideal fit for CF but am also not willing to say we should put Altherr there. We'd definitely have more options if Quinn could stay on the field.

I think the Phillies in general are looking for players with a decent hit tool. That is not the same as a good walk rate. It also involves swinging at good pitches that are strikes (which an aggressive hitter can do without lots of walks). It could also involve making quality contact on swings (which is something Herrera does).

flyers19rw 2017-06-23 19:16:39 UTC #877

With Joseph we also have to factor in how much time/development he has missed due to his injuries. He plays like a guy who knows that 1B is a power position and he is over reaching to fill that description. It would benefit him to slow himself down and play within his skills. Success should follow him.

As for Herrera, perhaps he's loopy and then again maybe he's another player that is trying too hard to make things happen. It is getting obvious that he and the manager are not on the same page. If it were just Herrera and Mackanin, that would be one thing but its Mackanin with other players as well. Unfortunately several of them are Latinos, which is not a good optic. The fourth paragraph of CD's post above merits serious consideration.

allentown 2017-06-23 19:17:24 UTC #878

Just one more example of how the 'hoped to flip' strategy has been a very expensive failure.

Austinfan 2017-06-23 19:18:00 UTC #879

Herrera is loopy, he has a problem with focus, especially at the plate and baserunning, but he also is very talented.
If he raises his game, you can live with the mistakes, but if he's just average, it's not worth the aggravation.

flyers19rw 2017-06-23 19:26:31 UTC #880

I'm hesitant to throw in the towel with Dooby. He's still 25 years old and never saw AAA due to being a rule 5 pick. His game does need to mature.
I was hoping that Samuel would take him under his wing to settle down and improve his performance. Maybe Samuel isn't the right guy for this. Perhaps someone like Chooch could bring out the best in him over the winter and going forward into the future.
There are too many Latinos on this roster that are struggling right now. They're not all bad players. Something is off here between the players and Mackanin and his staff. They aren't clicking.

allentown 2017-06-23 19:37:26 UTC #881

It's not just today's modern young baseball players -- most of the people you encounter in life are among those who do not react well to and are not improved or motivated by public criticism from their boss/friends/spouse/parents. Odubel clearly falls into this category. Pete should realize this. The whole Phillies organization should realize this. It is a venting/CYA exercise to make the manager feel better. Modern management theory says this is not something which successful managers do. Why do the Phillies persist in these outdated practices, which are little more than management temper tantrums? People in general and young adults in particular do not react well to this sort of treatment from authority figures. It is doubly unproductive if the Phillies intend to trade Odubel. As with Rolen and Abreu, this public running down of the character/ability of someone you want to trade will, not at all surprisingly, reduce the value of the person you want to trade, both because it prompts doubts about that person and makes the organization look like it is desperately dealing from a position of weakness. It is the sort of action which enables you to trade an Abreu for the ability to give away a Lidle for nothing.