2017 Season Phillies News/Notes/General Discussion

[Austinfan]

I think Appel is headed toward the bullpen, just too many pitchers jumping ahead of him.
HIs stuff fundamentally isn't better than Pivetta or Eflin, and not much better than Thompson. Lively is far more polished.
Now Eshelman is pulling ahead of him, though I'd like to find out what he's throwing, but it's certainly playing well in AAA ball.
And the second wave of young pitchers are only a year or so behind him.
At his age, he either makes a miracle turnaround or joins Pinto later this summer.

[andyb]

Eshelman is not throwing much according to Fangraphs:

Daily Prospect Notes: 5/30 | FanGraphs Baseball

"mostly 87-90 with an above average cutter and below average changeup and curveball. He throws a high volume of strikes and is naturally deceptive but has the stuff of a fifth starter."

There are reasons why guys like Appel get many more chances. We are actually very thin in AAA starters at the moment with Lively and potentially Pivetta back in the rotation. Thompson is better but not really missing too many bats. Our problem appears to be we have a bunch of young 4th and 5th starters with the two potentially better pitchers (Velasquez and Nola) having issues staying healthy and being consistent. We really need the next generation of starters (Sanchez, Dominguez, Kilome) to give us something better.

[Austinfan]

As bad as this team is playing right now, I'm far more optimistic than two years ago.
The struggles are by young players, with more young players behind them, not by veterans with an emply farm system behind them.
The only worrisome hole is 3B, because that's the black hole of the farm system.
Struggles by Eflin and Pivetta are normal, and Lehigh has a fine rotation, at some point they'll turn the corner.
Herrera might be a bad surprise, Altherr is a good surprise, Rupp may have flatlined, but Knapp is looking like a 2nd rd pick. And so on.
Even in the farm system, Valentin gets hurt, Kingery excels, Pullin isn't a fluke anymore.
As many pleasant surprises as abject failures.

I know I might be whistling past the graveyard after the awful May, but the long-run view really hasn't changed.
This year is disappointing, but that happens, sometimes it's "one step back, two steps forward."

[bkeich]

I havent seen Kingery play, but is there any chance he can play 3B?

Hernandez and Kingery are possibly (probably?) solid starters at 2B. It is a case of riches in 1 position and less at another. I would hate to have to trade one of them for a 3B if Franco just can't figure things out, but I am still hopeful that Franco can make some adjustments.

Obviously one of Hernandez or Kingery could eventually be moved for pitching or another "hole", but my preference would be to keep both if one of them has the arm for 3B. I am suspect that Hernandez really does.

[Austinfan]

No. Kingery is 2B only, lacks the arm for the left side of the IF. Which also means he's LF only if he moves to the OF.

[zambonir]

I think this is one of the reasons why it's such a slow rebuild. There is just no way any new philosophy, or use of analytics, has been fully implemented throughout the scouting department and the minor leagues. The question is, will the holdovers be doing something new or are there still big personnel changes to come? Because you can say it's the same old Phillies because of Middleton, but it's also still Proefrock as the top assistant, and Jordan's development people (and on the scouting side, also most of the same guys).

And, obviously, at the major league level, you have a manager who was on Charlie's coaching staff, and his bench coach is the manager who preceded Charlie. I think those guys are making use of the analytics (I believe Bowa, of all people, is the point man, though that's probably mostly for defensive stuff) but it's still likely that, ultimately, there will be both a new major league coaching staff and a new group of minor league supervisors.

[Philsmania]

I think this is one of the reasons why it's such a slow rebuild. There is just no way any new philosophy, or use of analytics, has been fully implemented throughout the scouting department and the minor leagues. The question is, will the holdovers be doing something new or are there still big personnel changes to come? Because you can say it's the same old Phillies because of Middleton, but it's also still Proefrock as the top assistant, and Jordan's development people (and on the scouting side, also most of the same guys).

And, obviously, at the major league level, you have a manager who was on Charlie's coaching staff, and his bench coach is the manager who preceded Charlie. I think those guys are making use of the analytics (I believe Bowa, of all people, is the point man, though that's probably mostly for defensive stuff) but it's still likely that, ultimately, there will be both a new major league coaching staff and a new group of minor league supervisors.

The Phillies old school "deep state"?

[Austinfan]

Some of that is it often takes 2 years or so to make major chances, as people Klentak would like to hire are currently under contract.

[zambonir]

Deep state, haha.

I doubt the support people are under contract - most scouts, development people, major league coaches, assistant GMs and minor league coaches & managers don't work on multi-year deals (or even contracts of any kind, I imagine, like most of us). And nearly anyone who is going to be promoted is available to be interviewed/hired (in the off-season).

This is an area where MacPhail was more hands-on, I think. He removed Mackanin's interim tag. Proefrock, who he worked with in Baltimore, was interim GM and stayed on. (Jordan also came from Baltimore but was not hired by MacPhail there). Klentak said he wanted a full year to evaluate and change things up w/o having to worry about the bigger hires, and he made some changes/additions this past season, but I doubt he's

Of course if both MacPhail/Klentak and the "deep state" guys like Wathan for next manager, the placeholder plan works out perfectly. Even the recent Mackanin extension is meaningless (and if he isn't the manager next year, he still gets paid, and probably deserves it).

[Austinfan]

If he wanted a full season then he'd start making changes last offseason.

For MLB scouts, it's getting harder to avoid force-out

https://www.law360.com/articles/675562/baseball-scouts-hit-mlb-with-antitrust-ot-class-action

[zambonir]

He's made some big hires - Ned Rice and Andy Galdi last year and the additional analytics guys this year. I just don't think he's finished. That's a tough article as far as the human side, but nobody's writing it about any Phillies old-timers yet.

Or are they? Where's Gordon Lakey's name here? I don't recall hearing he was out, though I do remember reading that the Phillies (like many teams) weren't going to have in-person major league scouts anymore.

http://philadelphia.phillies.mlb.com/team/front_office.jsp?c_id=phi

There are definitely 7 or 8 people/jobs there that did not exist three years ago, and nobody's irreplaceable. Of course, just marginalizing the senior advisers would be a big change.

[VoteForKalas]

I think this is one of the reasons why it's such a slow rebuild. There is just no way any new philosophy, or use of analytics, has been fully implemented throughout the scouting department and the minor leagues. The question is, will the holdovers be doing something new or are there still big personnel changes to come? Because you can say it's the same old Phillies because of Middleton, but it's also still Proefrock as the top assistant, and Jordan's development people (and on the scouting side, also most of the same guys).

And, obviously, at the major league level, you have a manager who was on Charlie's coaching staff, and his bench coach is the manager who preceded Charlie. I think those guys are making use of the analytics (I believe Bowa, of all people, is the point man, though that's probably mostly for defensive stuff) but it's still likely that, ultimately, there will be both a new major league coaching staff and a new group of minor league supervisors.

I realize it takes time to change course, but I thought Klentak's major initiatives included improving the organization's talent evaluation, acquisition and development programs?

Are we still in the review/evaluation stage on the various scouting, management and coaching positions? Has Klentak brought in any new blood since taking over? I have not kept up to date on those movements.

Seems crazy to keep drafting high and bringing those players into a system that may or may not be able to evaluate and develop them effectively. I also would have thought these elements were part of what MacPhail was evaluating during the transition hand off from Gillick and subsequent years.

[allentown]

It takes time to change course with consistency, it should not take much time to make substantive changes and it should take no time for evaluation of personnel to go full out on acquiring international talent, especially since Sal has such a good rep. Ford Motor has changed leadership. Anyone thing they won't come out with a full 2018 line of cars or will cut back substantially on development or forego sales incentives because the new guy wants time to evaluate all of his key staff before spending $? Ford is a vastly larger and more complicated organization than the Phillies. Good organizations make changes on the fly and know that opportunities passed by in order to hit pause for a year of evaluation are opportunities lost.

[Austinfan]

As far as International acquisitions, Klentak took over 9 months before the signing deadline for 2016 (October 2015).

Since most of the deals were probably negotiated well before he came on board (i.e. these kids are locked up at 14-15, and even the Cubans often come sign, sealed and delivered) even if Klentak had wanted to make a massive overpay, there were few opportunities left.

They have made some changes in the system, not sure how many.
But given they just built an analytics group, Klentak might be taking it slow.
And the evidence of collusion in baseball suggests he has to be careful about raiding other organizations - he can't just hire the people he wants - he has to negotiate their "release."

[andyb]

Sal has been there for 20 years though. There was plenty of time to try to spend more in Latin America this time and they did not do that. It is not like getting the number one allocation (or being among the top 3) was a surprise to them.

They CHOSE not to spend the extra $2.8 million internationally this year. Lack of available prospects with all the Cubans becoming available late is not an answer that holds any water. It is a missed opportunity.

[Lawman]

Todd Zolecki (ToddZolecki)

[bkeich]

I bet Lively wishes he could have brought his AAA teammates with him.

[bkeich]

Phillies now the worst team in the league by 4.5 games. That is pretty unusual to have a team that far below everyone at this point in the season.

It is time to do something.

[flyers19rw]

Friday night massacre? This sort of performance can't be allowed to continue.

[Austinfan]

Meh. There's nothing they can do other than a symbolic execution.
It's not a lack of effort, it's even not a lack ot talent, it's just a really deep funk that young teams go through.
Though I'm worried there's something physically wrong with Eickhoff, weird, he was hitting 92-93 but no command, either he changed his mechanics to get more velocity or he's overthrowing because he's hurting.