Politics/Public Affairs (OT)

[allentown]

This is almost funny. I'm neither conservative nor an independent — but I have voted for candidates from both parties over the years - in Gubernatorial races, in US Senate races, in US House races.

I'm pretty much what a flaming liberal D was in 1969 and I was a local D office-holder for two decades. I have voted for an R in most elections. I've supported our State Senator Pat Browne in several elections, because he helped Allentown a lot. The Rs gerrymandered him out of office. I voted for Congressman Charlie Dent three twice, being less than thrilled with the D candidate, and seeing Dent as a reasonable, honest, centrist R who was Pro-Choice and aligned with me on a couple other issues. He was head of the R House centrist caucus, until he became disgusted with Washington and a big swath of his R caucus. This year, i voted straight D. Centrist Rs seem to be a dead breed. Next year I likely vote for a good R for City Council and/or School Board. There have been more than a few poor D candidates in recent general elections for those offices.

I will say that what constitutes a flaming liberal has changed a lot since I was 21. I guess even back then, I was a pragmatic flaming liberal, with little sympathy for ideas from the farther left which made no economic/scientific/engineering sense or which called for violence. SDS/Weathermen/Black Panthers were a big deal at liberal arts colleges back then and their sympathizers always left me cold.

[German41]

False

[allentown]

Exactly what is false?

[schillingfan]

When I moved to northeastern Pennsylvania almost 40 years ago, it was solidly Democrat. There were manufacturing union jobs. When those left and manufacturing and industry went global, these people were left behind. I blame Clinton for not recognize that the former union workers were being left behind. The Democrats were more concerned with I’m not sure what, though Thry have done huge things in health care

Lucerne County. Opted for Trump by 20 points in 2016 and our. county Government is now almost all Republicans. Partisan loyalties have flip flopped. Solidly Democratic places have lots of Republican lawn siqns and I see Democratic ones in the modestly affluent surrounding towns. It’s all very depressing. I really had hopes for Fetterman to appeal to these voters. I’m afraid my Congressional District will go Republican. A guy who was a lobbyist in Washington. Our Congressman is on the Appropriations Committee and brought NEPA lots of federal money to help us economically.

I feel like I did the night before Trump won...resigned but helpless. I’m a Democrat who believes government is a power for good, but a civil libertarian who believes in the Bill of Rights. I hate big corporations and my top voting issue has always been the environment.

[Sabin]

Exactly what is false?

[VoteForKalas]

Agreed. There is little point in trying to reach these voters. We need to outvote them, and wait for them to die off.

I'm sorry to be so blunt about it... but as a guy who grew up deep in Pennsyltucky, I don't see much point in trying to persuade poorly educated bigots to change their views. One of the things you realize about rural America is that of the younger people who grow up in such environs, a significant subset - the ones who don't spurn education, the ones who have open minds - get the heck out.

Don't get me wrong; there are aspects of rural life that I still find appealing. But the ignorance, the closed-mindedness, the open racism and bigotry (I could tell you stories of what I heard from, for instance, fell fire company volunteers, as a young adult in central PA)? No, thanks.

Seems strange to be complaining about close-mindedness with arguments that echo the same thing and paint a large group of people with a very broad brush.

Not all rural people support Trump or the current Republican party. Many of them, like SF noted, supported the Democratic party until 2010 and some still do even though the Democrats ignore them. I also know a whole bunch of Trump supporters including some family and they are not ignorant nor racist. What they are is angry, disillusioned, cynical and in denial that anyone else can speak to their issues or represent them well.

Do I agree with their choice to support cretins like Trump? Absolutely not and I continue to debate with them all the time about what it is doing to our country. But they see no other viable option and in some ways I understand what they mean. The Democrats have done a horrible job explaining their ideas and policies, especially to this constituency. They have done even worse in delivering on their promises. They've take them for granted for a long time which they finally realized when the Republicans grabbed these voters big time in 2016.

If the Democrats truly believe these voters are all ignorant bigots who have no love for their country and no passion for a better future, they are in big trouble as a party. Several family members have Deplorables t-shirts. When Clinton made that statement in the 2016 election, one of them told me Trump was going to win because the Democrats still believe it is 2008. Unfortunately, he was right.

[Sabin]

Don't get me wrong; there are aspects of rural life that I still find appealing. But the ignorance, the closed-mindedness, the open racism and bigotry (I could tell you stories of what I heard from, for instance, fell fire company volunteers, as a young adult in central PA)? No, thanks.

Seems strange to be complaining about close-mindedness with arguments that echo the same thing and paint a large group of people with a very broad brush.

Glad someone other than me saw the philosophical conundrum that comment presented.

[Mac]

I can't believe Stacey Abrams got cheated again.

[LoneStarPhan]

It is now looking like the Democratic Party will turn in one of the best performances by the in power party in an off cycle election in recent memory, being only exceeded by the 2002 Republican results. Republicans may or may not end up with the majority in the House, but it will not be the Red wave some were predicting. Both houses of Congress may well end up with a razor thin edge to one or the other party.

Of course, votes are still being counted across the country and surprises can still happen.

[Sabin]

Of course, votes are still being counted across the country and surprises can still happen.

Still knocking on wood with the WC states in early stages, but it appears the Senate majority will again hang on a runoff in Georgia unless Cortez Masto can hold on to an early lead over Masters in Nevada (Rs felt confident Nevada was theirs heading in).

[julio]

Still knocking on wood with the WC states in early stages, but it appears the Senate majority will again hang on a runoff in Georgia unless Cortez Masto can hold on to an early lead over Masters in Nevada (Rs felt confident Nevada was theirs heading in).

That's Laxalt, not Masters, in Nevada. Masters is the Republican candidate in Arizona.

[Aquapong]

Unreal. Despite all of the political headwinds for the Democrats going into the election, the Gop will still snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. The best they can hope for at this point is a scant House majority.

The Gop had poor Senate candidates in PA and GA. They allowed the Democrats to prop up strawman candidates in PA for the Governor and NH Senate in the primaries.

[julio]

The Gop had poor Senate candidates in PA and GA. They allowed the Democrats to prop up strawman candidates in PA for the Governor and NH Senate in the primaries.

OK. I’ll bite. Which of the seven eight Pennsylvania Republicans who sought the nomination for Senate Governor do you define as a “strawman candidate” put up by the Democrats? Mastriano more than doubled Barletta’s vote count (44% to 20%); the third and fourth candidates (McSwain and White) are established Republican politicians, and the other four collectively didn’t receive enough votes to even bring Barletta close to Mastriano.

[RolenRules]

Maybe I misread, but did Aquapong mean a strawman Dem candidate for PA Governor?

If so, I strongly disagree. Shapiro is highly qualified, whereas Mastriano is a loose cannon to put it mildly.

[Aquapong]

The Democrats propped up Mastriano during the primary. Everyone knew he wasn’t going to win a general election.

[julio]

Maybe I misread, but did Aquapong mean a strawman Dem candidate for PA Governor?

If so, I strongly disagree. Shapiro is highly qualified, whereas Mastriano is a loose cannon to put it mildly.

You’re correct, I misread it; you did not. I’ll edit it.

[julio]

The Democrats propped up Mastriano during the primary. Everyone knew he wasn’t going to win a general election.

Mastriano more than doubled the vote count of his nearest competitor (Barletta). He came fairly close to pulling a majority, in an eight-candidate race. In a Republican primary, there is no way that Democratic advertising caused, or heavily influenced that outcome. The unpleasant reality is that Doug Mastriano reflects the values of the Republican base - or at least the activist base that actually votes in primaries - in Pennsylvania. White Christian Nationalist, relatively unconcerned with democracy, OK with systematic dishonesty if that’s what it takes to “win.” MAGA. Trumpism. The end justifies the means.

Yes, it was widely understood that Mastriano could probably not win a general election. But 44% of Republican primary voters didn’t opt for Mastriano because Josh Shapiro “propped him up.” They opted for Mastriano because Mastriano appealed to them, because they agree with his positions, as odious as those are.

Mastriano was probably helped by the fact that Lou Barletta is a pretty creepy politician, who realistically should give up seeking statewide office in Pennsylvania. But even if it had been a two-candidate race, Barletta would have had to split the 36% of voters who opted for “neither” of the top two candidates 5-1, to catch Mastriano (30% to Barletta, 6% to Mastriano).

I can understand some conservatives, some Republicans, finding Mastriano… unappealing, to say the least. But the reality here is that the Republican base in Pennsylvania selected Mastriano by a margin that says they wanted Mastriano.

[RolenRules]

I think Trump propped up Mastriano as much as anyone. Even though Barletta was a frequent guest at Trump rallies pre 2020, the Donald supported the more extreme candidate. But I think that this election shows, both in PA and nationally, that the very extreme right wing candidates are being rejected and that Trump's influence and popularity are in decline.

[allentown]

This is not all rural voters, it's rural MAGA voters. It seems abundantly true that these voters are driven by cultural rather than economic issues. The Rs haven't served them at all well economically. Look at what the Rs campaign on: largely cultural issues with a denunciation of inflation, for which they have no proposed solution and to which the Trump presidency contributed enormously. It is true that we have severe inflation under Biden, but not likely due to Biden. We know how long it took for the inflation from LBJ's 'guns and butter' to take hold. We know that this inflation is global. We know that Ukraine, the Covid problems, Trump's tax cuts, Trump's Covid relief (which was actually a good idea) and Biden's Covid relief (also largely a good idea although not as much a slam dunk as Trump's) all contributed. Biden's general programmatic spending has had a rather small impact and any inflationary impact, if it happens, isn't going to happen for years. The Fed played a big part -- the low interest rates were needed, the bond purchases were done as a favor to banks and investors, rather than the general public. The banks would have lost money, but weren't going to fail if their bad-bet bonds weren't bought up by the Fed.

I am always amazed at the faux thin skin of conservative Rs. All the offense taken publicly to Hillary's 'basket of deplorables' which she said was only half of Trump supporters or Obama's 'clinging to their guns and religion'. NOBODY hurls more insults continuously than MAGA Republicans, their politicians, and right-wing media. Every Dem is a commie in virtually every R letter to editor or on-line comment. Trump's whole speeches consist of insults and lies. MTG is an insult a second. These are bullies who are just way too weak to stand even a little return criticism.

And no, these voters don't hate America. They have a different view of what America should be. Some rural MAGA voters, who likely are less than half of rural voters, are undoubtedly racial bigots, although I think more are strongly anti-LGBTQ (especially the T), some don't like modern women and believe women don't belong in politics (a lot of Hillary's problem in 2016) and have definitely been sold on the idea that immigrants are responsible for their woes (legal as well as illegal -- S. Miller blocked Trump/Congress idea to trade DACA normalization for finishing border wall, unless legal immigration was drastically cut)..

[allentown]

Stacey ran a poor campaign and this time around Kemp is an incumbent and one of the Rs attacked by Trump, which certainly created some sympathy for him. He's definitely not a MAGA R.