News of Phormer Phillies 2016

[zambonir]

Thome was the first face of the new Phillies. Prior to Thome the team was always piecemilled together with C+ free agents, taking the leftovers and often being outbid. The new stadium, the new revenue, the signing of Jim Thome went hand in hand in hand and birthed a lot of excitement for the team. But was he a Phillies hall of famer????????????????

I agree with your points about Thome being the watershed moment for the new Phillies where the "small market" club was shooed out of town an all that went with that. A Phillies HOF? Not really. Maybe he could have been if Wade had moved Howard for fair value and Thome had finished his career out in red pinstripes but that isn't what happened.

Jim Thome WAR from 2006-11: 16.1

Ryan Howard WAR from 2006-11: 16.1

So, did the Phillies trade the right guy?
It would have all depended on the return. Obviously Howard was worth more than a pair of middle relievers. Under the circumstances, the return for Thome was fair at the time.

Now do Werth vs. Howard for the last four years...

I don't think the Wall of Fame has any kind of standards, really. It shouldn't be taken any more seriously than the All-Star game. If the fans voted for Thome, they voted for him. But the final call is made by the selection committee, taking the fan vote into consideration. So I reckon Middleton and Montgomery and Gillick and Giles and Wade (he still works here!) and Charlie Manuel all feel overly fond of Thome and the role he played in starting the CBP era. And that's ok too.

It would be unfortunate if Rolen didn't get on it because either of those groups haven't forgiven him, however. And what about Manny Trillo and Fregosi?

I definitely think Pete Rose should be on there (or at least on the ballot) too, but this is the year for the Reds to honor him. Not entirely dissimilar to Thome, except Thome achieved less. I imagine Roy Halladay and Cliff Lee will make the cut eventually too, and they didn't win anything either (except individually). None of those guys would wear a Phillies cap in the real HoF, or ever be considered for a retired number in Philly.

[Philsmania]

Thome was the first face of the new Phillies. Prior to Thome the team was always piecemilled together with C+ free agents, taking the leftovers and often being outbid. The new stadium, the new revenue, the signing of Jim Thome went hand in hand in hand and birthed a lot of excitement for the team. But was he a Phillies hall of famer????????????????

I agree with your points about Thome being the watershed moment for the new Phillies where the "small market" club was shooed out of town an all that went with that. A Phillies HOF? Not really. Maybe he could have been if Wade had moved Howard for fair value and Thome had finished his career out in red pinstripes but that isn't what happened.

Jim Thome WAR from 2006-11: 16.1

Ryan Howard WAR from 2006-11: 16.1

So, did the Phillies trade the right guy?
It would have all depended on the return. Obviously Howard was worth more than a pair of middle relievers. Under the circumstances, the return for Thome was fair at the time.

Now do Werth vs. Howard for the last four years...

I don't think the Wall of Fame has any kind of standards, really. It shouldn't be taken any more seriously than the All-Star game. If the fans voted for Thome, they voted for him. But the final call is made by the selection committee, taking the fan vote into consideration. So I reckon Middleton and Montgomery and Gillick and Giles and Wade (he still works here!) and Charlie Manuel all feel overly fond of Thome and the role he played in starting the CBP era. And that's ok too.

It would be unfortunate if Rolen didn't get on it because either of those groups haven't forgiven him, however. And what about Manny Trillo and Fregosi?

I definitely think Pete Rose should be on there (or at least on the ballot) too, but this is the year for the Reds to honor him. Not entirely dissimilar to Thome, except Thome achieved less. I imagine Roy Halladay and Cliff Lee will make the cut eventually too, and they didn't win anything either (except individually). None of those guys would wear a Phillies cap in the real HoF, or ever be considered for a retired number in Philly.

Rolen was on the ballot this year so it stands to reason that the powers that be in the organization are willing to bury the hatchet. Now it's up to the phans.

And yes, Fregosi should be up there if even just for '93. Trillo, Rose, Halladay and Lee as well. And, if you say Trillo, what about the Sarge who was also a Phillies NLCS MVP?

[Lucky_Beagle]

Snakes call up Kyle Drabek

[GunbladeVIII]

Thome was the first face of the new Phillies. Prior to Thome the team was always piecemilled together with C+ free agents, taking the leftovers and often being outbid. The new stadium, the new revenue, the signing of Jim Thome went hand in hand in hand and birthed a lot of excitement for the team. But was he a Phillies hall of famer????????????????

I agree with your points about Thome being the watershed moment for the new Phillies where the "small market" club was shooed out of town an all that went with that. A Phillies HOF? Not really. Maybe he could have been if Wade had moved Howard for fair value and Thome had finished his career out in red pinstripes but that isn't what happened.

Jim Thome WAR from 2006-11: 16.1

Ryan Howard WAR from 2006-11: 16.1

So, did the Phillies trade the right guy?
It would have all depended on the return. Obviously Howard was worth more than a pair of middle relievers. Under the circumstances, the return for Thome was fair at the time.

Now do Werth vs. Howard for the last four years...

I don't think the Wall of Fame has any kind of standards, really. It shouldn't be taken any more seriously than the All-Star game. If the fans voted for Thome, they voted for him. But the final call is made by the selection committee, taking the fan vote into consideration. So I reckon Middleton and Montgomery and Gillick and Giles and Wade (he still works here!) and Charlie Manuel all feel overly fond of Thome and the role he played in starting the CBP era. And that's ok too.

Perhaps at least a little more seriously than the All-Star game, but I largely think you're dead on here. I'm in the camp that believes that Thome willingly choosing to come here was a transformative moment for the Phillies, so much so that a lifetime of Phillies memories, at least for me, are divided not between the Veterans Stadium and CBP eras, but the pre-Thome and post-Thome eras.

And it's not like he didn't perform well while he was here, even if it was just a few short years in a long career of a guy who's a defining face of a totally different team.

Now if we were talking about retiring his number, that'd be different. But Thome's place on the Wall of Fame is more that earned enough for me.

[Philsmania]

Thome was the first face of the new Phillies. Prior to Thome the team was always piecemilled together with C+ free agents, taking the leftovers and often being outbid. The new stadium, the new revenue, the signing of Jim Thome went hand in hand in hand and birthed a lot of excitement for the team. But was he a Phillies hall of famer????????????????

I agree with your points about Thome being the watershed moment for the new Phillies where the "small market" club was shooed out of town an all that went with that. A Phillies HOF? Not really. Maybe he could have been if Wade had moved Howard for fair value and Thome had finished his career out in red pinstripes but that isn't what happened.

Jim Thome WAR from 2006-11: 16.1

Ryan Howard WAR from 2006-11: 16.1

So, did the Phillies trade the right guy?
It would have all depended on the return. Obviously Howard was worth more than a pair of middle relievers. Under the circumstances, the return for Thome was fair at the time.

Howard was young and cost-controlled. If this occurred ten years later or if the change in baseball thinking occurred ten years earlier, Howard would have commanded a king's ransom of multiple talented young players and/or prospects which would have come in handy just when the pharm was starting to thin out.

[philsphan67]

Further I don't think Thome could play in the field 115 games, let alone 150 games a year as Howard did during those years. 2004 was the last time Thome played 100 games in the field. I am a huge Jim Thome fan and he deserves a lot of credit for the energy he brought to the Phils and the city, but WITHOUT the DH he probably has no shot at the real HOF....his career ends with him pinch hitting only in the NL or AL pre-DH.

[GunbladeVIII]

Further I don't think Thome could play in the field 115 games, let alone 150 games a year as Howard did during those years. 2004 was the last time Thome played 100 games in the field. I am a huge Jim Thome fan and he deserves a lot of credit for the energy he brought to the Phils and the city, but WITHOUT the DH he probably has no shot at the real HOF....his career ends with him pinch hitting only in the NL or AL pre-DH.

Possibly tangential question: does WAR take this into account? Rephrased: given two players, one is strictly a DH, the other an average fielder, all other things 100% identical, does the second player have a higher WAR?

[julio]

I'm in the camp that believes that Thome willingly choosing to come here was a transformative moment for the Phillies, so much so that a lifetime of Phillies memories, at least for me, are divided not between the Veterans Stadium and CBP eras, but the pre-Thome and post-Thome eras.

I guess I see the Thome signing differently.

I've seen the Phillies field seriously competitive teams in three eras now - 1976-83, 1993, 2007-11. None of those teams was built on high-level free agency; the were constructed largely of players developed by the Phillies, and players acquired in astute trades, or picked up as discards from other organizations.

I really don't see the Thome signing as transformative - rather, I see it as pretty consistent with prior Phillies efforts to "play" in the free agent market. Rose; Parrish; Jefferies; Thome; Bell. Some better than others, but nobody who became a long-term core player for a perennial contender.

I see the Thome/Bell signings not as the beginning of a new era - but as the last hurrah of what was, overall, a failed approach. Thome's presence was a positive; David Bell's presence (signed at the same time, in Philadelphia for the same years) was a clear negative. Some argue that Thome's presence held Ryan Howard back, but I don't buy that - Thome only started about 50 games in 2005, and that's not a significant impact on Howard's major-league career. Bell's presence, on the other hand, did steal a full season from Chase Utley, and also led to the Phils missing out on the best years of Placido Polanco's career.

[andyb]

Ken Giles, in first reg season work for Astros, gives up homer to first batter he faces.

Fangraphs musing on whether Giles' demotion will decline the formal bullpen role/save pecking order:
fangraphs.com/blogs/ken-gile ... al-victim/

I do think the motivation on demoting Giles was simply that Gregerson pitched better and it is not as like Gregerson is a bad pitcher. Giles has the potential to be better but the difference between the two in performance is not that great.

[mdougherty12]

Further I don't think Thome could play in the field 115 games, let alone 150 games a year as Howard did during those years. 2004 was the last time Thome played 100 games in the field. I am a huge Jim Thome fan and he deserves a lot of credit for the energy he brought to the Phils and the city, but WITHOUT the DH he probably has no shot at the real HOF....his career ends with him pinch hitting only in the NL or AL pre-DH.

Possibly tangential question: does WAR take this into account? Rephrased: given two players, one is strictly a DH, the other an average fielder, all other things 100% identical, does the second player have a higher WAR?

Yes, there is a positional value component to all of the popular flavors of WAR.

Sent from my XT1053 using Tapatalk

[zambonir]

I'm in the camp that believes that Thome willingly choosing to come here was a transformative moment for the Phillies, so much so that a lifetime of Phillies memories, at least for me, are divided not between the Veterans Stadium and CBP eras, but the pre-Thome and post-Thome eras.

I guess I see the Thome signing differently.

I've seen the Phillies field seriously competitive teams in three eras now - 1976-83, 1993, 2007-11. None of those teams was built on high-level free agency; the were constructed largely of players developed by the Phillies, and players acquired in astute trades, or picked up as discards from other organizations.

I really don't see the Thome signing as transformative - rather, I see it as pretty consistent with prior Phillies efforts to "play" in the free agent market. Rose; Parrish; Jefferies; Thome; Bell. Some better than others, but nobody who became a long-term core player for a perennial contender.

I see the Thome/Bell signings not as the beginning of a new era - but as the last hurrah of what was, overall, a failed approach. Thome's presence was a positive; David Bell's presence (signed at the same time, in Philadelphia for the same years) was a clear negative. Some argue that Thome's presence held Ryan Howard back, but I don't buy that - Thome only started about 50 games in 2005, and that's not a significant impact on Howard's major-league career. Bell's presence, on the other hand, did steal a full season from Chase Utley, and also led to the Phils missing out on the best years of Placido Polanco's career.

It's your opinion, but I think it's a minority opinion (which may go w/o saying given the fans and brass made their choice). It's a story and a symbol more than a hard cause-and-effect, but the wooing of Thome was a huge deal, super exciting and dramatic for the fans and the media as it played it out, especially since he was all but certain to sign with Cleveland. And while Thome and the other vets were obviously not the players who ultimately made the next great era, the 2001-2006 teams (not all of which included Thome obviously) were still a big step forward, after nearly a decade of losing seasons. One of those clubs should have made the playoffs and a bunch of them won 85 or 86 games. Even Bowa gets a little credit. To me the era began with Jimmy Rollins, and Jim Thome was an enjoyable, if not statistically significant, part of it. Maybe the owners' checkbook, or the legislation that got CBP built, is what really should be on the wall, but...

Plus, if you dock Thome points for Bell, how many do you give him for Charlie?

[LoneStarPhan]

For me, the Thome signing did mark a turning point.

[Lawman]

Analysis on Thome's Career in Philly

To me, there’s no question that this eligibility change was the right call. Jim Thome is quite literally one of the greatest of all-time and two of his peak seasons were played in a Phillies uniform. That alone is enough to warrant celebration, although his case extends even deeper beyond that but we’ll get to that in a bit.

In his relatively brief time with Philadelphia, he hit 101 home runs which is good for 23rd all-time in franchise history and he ranks first all-time among Phillies in AB/HR with a staggering 13.3 ratio which sits above Ryan Howard (15.1) and Mike Schmidt (15.2). He’s second in slugging percentage at .541 behind only Baker Bowl product Chuck Klein (.553) and fourth in OPS (.925) behind Klein, Bobby Abreu, and 19th century legend and Hall of Famer, Sliding Billy Hamilton.

[Lucky_Beagle]

I would not have voted for Thome. I believe there are/will be many others who played a greater role for the Phillies.

[scorcher]

I'd put Rick Wise on the wall. He brought Steve Carlton to Philly.

[Philsmania]

Domonic Brown is currently on the Buffalo Bisons' roster so I guess he didn't make the Blue Jays out of ST.

And his hitting coach there is Richie Hebner and two of his teammates are Humberto Quintero and one-time Phillies pharmhand Bobby Korecky.

[zambonir]

I don't think Dom is gonna make the wall

[Lucky_Beagle]

Snakes call up Kyle Drabek

He didn't last long....

The Diamondbacks have designated right-hander Kyle Drabek for assignment, per a team announcement (and as Nick Piecoro of the Arizona Republic

[David_Criss]

Rangers release Jordan Danks

[Philsmania]

Braves transfer Jesse Biddle to the 60 day DL. Presumably, they'll be able to successfully stash him there for the season.

mlbtraderumors.com/2016/04/braves-jhoulys-chacin.html