MLB (Non-Phils) News and Notes 2016

[Slinging_Southpaw]

So far the Brewers have picked Garin Cecchini and Rymer Liriano for a bags of balls and a pine tar rag.
That first pick hasn't done us a whole lot of good.

[LoneStarPhan]

So far the Brewers have picked Garin Cecchini and Rymer Liriano for a bags of balls and a pine tar rag.
That first pick hasn't done us a whole lot of good.

In the case of Liriano, I don't think he was ever on waivers, so first pick or 30th pick, it doesn't matter. With Cecchini, I don't recall off hand how that went down, trade or waiver.

[julio]

So far the Brewers have picked Garin Cecchini and Rymer Liriano for a bags of balls and a pine tar rag.
That first pick hasn't done us a whole lot of good.

In the case of Liriano, I don't think he was ever on waivers, so first pick or 30th pick, it doesn't matter. With Cecchini, I don't recall off hand how that went down, trade or waiver.

Liriano definitively was NOT on waivers. He was designated for assignment, and the Padres traded for him.

I presume we're now going to shift from condemning the Phillies front office for failing to claim Liriano on waivers (they never had that opportunity), to condemning them for "allowing" another team to make a trade for him with the Padres.

[Slinging_Southpaw]

So far the Brewers have picked Garin Cecchini and Rymer Liriano for a bags of balls and a pine tar rag.
That first pick hasn't done us a whole lot of good.

In the case of Liriano, I don't think he was ever on waivers, so first pick or 30th pick, it doesn't matter. With Cecchini, I don't recall off hand how that went down, trade or waiver.
Liriano definitively was NOT on waivers. He was designated for assignment, and the Padres traded for him.

I presume we're now going to shift from condemning the Phillies front office for failing to claim Liriano on waivers (they never had that opportunity), to condemning them for "allowing" another team to make a trade for him with the Padres.

Neither player made it to waivers. My point is that the Brewers picked up Cecchini and Liriano for little to nothing. We could have done that too, we could have bid a little more than them. The Brewers organization, though not far down from the Phillies pick(3rd or 4th I think), obviously felt both players would get claimed before they would get the chance. They paid cash for Cecchini and gave up a mediocre relief prospect for Liriano and now they have added cheap young talent to their organization. This is smart.
I have no doubt we could have added both players for less than the cost of Peter Bourjos one year contract. I keep seeing where our big asset is money. Sometimes hitting the bargain bin is a much smarter move than paying some Cuban that you know little to nothing about huge money.

What is a prospect worth?
When he's coming out of High School, organizations will fork over huge bucks, then wait 4 years on the chance that the player will advance to the level that both Cecchini and Liriano have, but now that they both could be on the doorstep to Major League careers, now is the time to get cheap?

[allentown]

Proximity is certainly a plus, but playing at the higher levels of the farm also exposes the weaknesses of players who did well at lower levels. Cecchini outright stank in 2015 from an offensive standpoint and there have been questions raised about the quality of his defense -- both in the OF and at 3B. He is a guy that many of us lusted after on draft day, years back, and he started his minor league career with a bang. He reached AAA in his 4th season in 2014 and his OPS fell over a hundred points to just .712. Still, he was only 23 so this could partly be written off as an adjustment to wily vet pitchers. We had a lot of discussion last season about whether Hamels should be traded to Boston, with Cecchini debated as the 3rd or 4th player in a deal. The Philly media accurately reported that the Phillies management had always liked Cecchini and wanted him to be part of any deal with Boston. Well, Cecchini totally collapsed in his 2015 AAA re-run, with his OPS plummeting to .582, with a paltry .286 OBP. He was still only 24, so there is hope, but his star is greatly diminished. We have a lot of corner OFs now and the industry consensus seems to be that Cecchini is less than adequate at 3B. I'd pass on Cecchini today.

Interestingly, Liriano was also a big part of the Hamels trade talk on this board. He was cited as the #3 guy in a Hamels deal. Liriano had a good season in 2015. It would have been nice for the Phillies to acquire him. He's got a good OBP with some speed and some HR power. I think we have room for him in our OF.

[Austinfan]

Teams talk all the time, I doubt this trade went down without the Padres talking to a number of GMs.
What it really says is how little Liriano is valued when he can only garner the equivalent of DeNato (or worse).

By this point in their careers, scouts can assess weaknesses that weren't apparent coming out of HS, or flaws that if they haven't been corrected in four years, will probably never be fixed.

[LoneStarPhan]

I'm sure the Phillies have information on players in other systems and routinely scout other organizations. With interest in a possible Hamels deal with San Diego last year, Liriano was undoubtedly scouted more intensely than normal. Maybe the Phillies organization just didn't think Liriano was worth going after. We may not agree, but only time will tell.

[julio]

I presume we're now going to shift from condemning the Phillies front office for failing to claim Liriano on waivers (they never had that opportunity), to condemning them for "allowing" another team to make a trade for him with the Padres.

My point is that the Brewers picked up Cecchini and Liriano for little to nothing. We could have done that too, we could have bid a little more than them. The Brewers organization, though not far down from the Phillies pick(3rd or 4th I think), obviously felt both players would get claimed before they would get the chance. They paid cash for Cecchini and gave up a mediocre relief prospect for Liriano and now they have added cheap young talent to their organization. This is smart.
I have no doubt we could have added both players for less than the cost of Peter Bourjos one year contract. I keep seeing where our big asset is money. Sometimes hitting the bargain bin is a much smarter move than paying some Cuban that you know little to nothing about huge money.

What is a prospect worth?
When he's coming out of High School, organizations will fork over huge bucks, then wait 4 years on the chance that the player will advance to the level that both Cecchini and Liriano have, but now that they both could be on the doorstep to Major League careers, now is the time to get cheap?

Thanks for making my point for me, SS.

There are other possibilities here, besides assuming that the Phillies didn't outbid the Brewers because they are "cheap." For instance, there is a possibility that the Phillies management and scouting department do not consider Cecchini or Liriano to be "on the doorstep to Major League careers," but rather see them as marginal, likely not-quite-major-league talents.

I know you've been interested in Liriano for quite a while (I did a search; you've brought him up several times in the last year or so...). I'd be inclined to think that the Phillies' view of his value is just different than yours - not that they declined to pursue him because they're "cheap," or in love with Peter Bourjos, or "satisfied" with the current outfield corps. I suspect they've looked at the scouting reports, and his stats - in particular, his rather prodigious strikeout rates - and concluded that he would not help. I would note that his AA and AAA stats aren't all that great - playing in very favorable offensive environments, he put up good OBP, but showed only so-so power (ISOs in the .170 range). For a player with only middling power, a 24% strikeout rate is a bit unsettling.

As I said earlier, I'd have been fine claiming him and giving him a look. But we've moved on from that; he wasn't waived. Now we're grumbling because the Phillies didn't "outbid" somebody else for him?

As for the Brewers...they might be more interested in a Cecchini or a Liriano than the Phillies because their minor-league system is weaker than ours, specifically with regard to hitting prospects? They might be more willing to take a flyer on guys like Cecchini and Liriano, because they have nobody better?

[California_Dreamin]

And my point remains the same...while I greatly admire MOST of what the Phillies are doing, I still feel they are ignoring the position player aspect of rebuilding their system and to me, Liriano is the latest example.

A few people mentioned that having the first waiver claim situation was the Phillies greatest enemy, I submit that they could have used this as their greatest strength. They could have told the Padres "look, we are going to claim him if he makes it to waivers" so here is a list of 10 players, choose one and lets get this done. Austinfan mentioned that the guy the Pads got was a Joey DeNato type. That sounds a decent comparison. Give me 30 minutes and I can name 10 Joey DeNato types in the Phillie system.

I will be following Liriano closely as I believe [and could be wrong] that the Phils could have had him with a bit more effort and chose not to get into the bidding. I also believe he has lots of potential and seems precisely the kind of guy the Phils should be trying to bring in but seem almost adverse to bringing in hitters. I mean I loved the Giles deal but even that one, the Phils got 5 pitchers and nary a hitter, and it appears they could have had a hitter, Fisher, but chose pitching instead.

And we all suspect the 1.1 pick in June is going to be a pitcher. Look, I understand the adage, sign 10 pitchers and get 1 good one, fair enough. But my instinct tells me that baseball recognizes that baseball is becoming too pitcher oriented and will be making rule adjustments soon to help hitters...ie. designated hitter in NL.

I give the Brewers credit for plucking two formerly top prospects for the cost of money and Joey Denato. While they indeed may have a worse system than do the Phillies, its not like Philadelphia has become the mecca of the prospect baseball world.

Count me as one who wished Cecchini and Liriano were reporting to Clearwater next month and I believe they could have gotten both. I suspect at least one of them is going to be a useful major league player, certainly at least as useful as Bourjos or Blanco....and a whole lot younger.

I keep hearing the Phils are going to be "opportunistic" going forward and this to me would have been a good example of that. I understand not getting Fister...he has as much choice in the matter as they did. But I think with some aggressiveness they could have gotten Liriano and should have. He sure seems at least as good as a few of the guys they have on their outfield roster now...and younger.

[Lucky_Beagle]

Maybe the PHillies offered the Padres a list of 20 names to pick from and they said no thanks, we are taking the offer from the Brewers. We have no idea on whether the Phillies tried to make a trade or not.

[California_Dreamin]

Maybe. But considering what the Padres settled for, we have to believe that if they did offer 20 names, none of them were worth acquiring. Which to me reminds me of the days the Phils claimed to always "just barely get beaten out for a free agent with an offer that they felt was a good one." People like Squire and others were always saying this was nothing more than blah, blah, blah.

So if you are going to defend the Phils in this case, which is a very fair thing to do, you have to concede that either A] they weren't interested in Liriano and made no effort to get him or B] their effort was a subpar one.

Look, my point and SS's point is this...we are the phans of a team that right now, record wise, is the WORST in baseball. The worst. What better time to take a chance of low risk, high reward guys like Cecchini and/or Liriano when you have little to lose and much to gain.

The cost? Almost nothing. The gain? A low cost rookie who will be pre-arbitration for several years and might just grow into an important part of the team's future. Like I said before...I believe either of Cecchini and/or Liriano would have instantly become one of the Phillies Top 20 prospects. Which theoretically means our club doesn't have 20 better players in the system than either of them. And I doubt seriously that Joey DeNato is going to be a Top 50 player any time soon. And Cecchini? Cost nothing but cash, something the Phils are drowning in.

Even if they both become no nothings, I want the Phillies bringing in the no nothings, not the Brewers.

[allentown]

Maybe. But considering what the Padres settled for, we have to believe that if they did offer 20 names, none of them were worth acquiring. Which to me reminds me of the days the Phils claimed to always "just barely get beaten out for a free agent with an offer that they felt was a good one." People like Squire and others were always saying this was nothing more than blah, blah, blah.

So if you are going to defend the Phils in this case, which is a very fair thing to do, you have to concede that either A] they weren't interested in Liriano and made no effort to get him or B] their effort was a subpar one.

Look, my point and SS's point is this...we are the phans of a team that right now, record wise, is the WORST in baseball. The worst. What better time to take a chance of low risk, high reward guys like Cecchini and/or Liriano when you have little to lose and much to gain.

The cost? Almost nothing. The gain? A low cost rookie who will be pre-arbitration for several years and might just grow into an important part of the team's future. Like I said before...I believe either of Cecchini and/or Liriano would have instantly become one of the Phillies Top 20 prospects. Which theoretically means our club doesn't have 20 better players in the system than either of them. And I doubt seriously that Joey DeNato is going to be a Top 50 player any time soon. And Cecchini? Cost nothing but cash, something the Phils are drowning in.

Even if they both become no nothings, I want the Phillies bringing in the no nothings, not the Brewers.

I agree on Liriano. The PHillies are not set with OFs for the next few years. You can't just list your #10,15,20,25, and #30 prospects and Herrera and conclude 'no problem, we're set, don't consider anyone else.' It wasn't just Cecchini's lack of a defensive position, he's now put up two years of meh to awful offense at AAA. If you want a good bat, no field, cheap player Cecchini isn't near the top of the list. He's looking more and more like a guy weeded out by AAA pitching.

[julio]

CD (or anybody), I'm curious: If you believe that either Cecchini or Liriano would have "instantly become" one of the Phils' top 20 prospects - where would you put them on the prospects list. You can easily find multiple such lists to use as a basis - Matt Winkleman has compiled a list on his web site; PhuturePhillies is in the process; we have a whole thread on the 2016 top prospect lists. If you think one of these two would slot in there... where? It would be interesting to discuss specifically who you think these guys are better than, and why.

[California_Dreamin]

allentown...agree with you to a point. Charlie Manuel was effusive in his praise of Cecchini and wanted him included in any Hamels deal. We know this because it was widely reported. In Boston, Cafardo said that the problem with Cecchini was not he was altering his swing because the Sox wanted more power from him. Fair enough.

But what if the Phils told him, "just be yourself, hit the way you are comfortable, thats all we ask." My guess is that he would have been worth the effort. I expect him to become a very decent major league player, Liriano is more risky but with a very high reward.

[California_Dreamin]

julio...sure I can answer that easily. I am using MLB's current top 20 list. I would take either of them over, Lively, Imhof, Windle and tied with Goeddel. Heck, Biddle was #21 and he just got DFA. Tirado is on the list and he wasn't even protected. I like the potential of Liraino better than any of those guys except Goeddel, who I rate evenly.

And here is the question...what if Goeddel washes out and is given back to TB, which is a possibility? I mean, we have to keep him all year or offer him back. Liriano would have been nice protection in case this happens. Forward thinking, I believe the Phils call it.

[julio]

julio...sure I can answer that easily. I am using MLB's current top 20 list. I would take either of them over, Lively, Imhof, Windle and tied with Goeddel. Heck, Biddle was #21 and he just got DFA. Tirado is on the list and he wasn't even protected. I like the potential of Liraino better than any of those guys except Goeddel, who I rate evenly.

For whatever it's worth, Goeddel is the only one of the players CD listed who is in Winkleman's top 20 (he's at 19). He ranks Windle #32 and Lively #33. Imhof appears not to make his top 50.

PhuturePhillies is ranking based on a day-by-day reader poll. As of now,they're through #17, and only Goeddel has made their list (he's at #16). Lively and Windle look like they're going to land somewhere in the 20s. Imhof isn't even under consideration.

Jesse Biddle appears nowhere on anybody's current prospect list that I'm aware of, except the MLB list. He's down with TJ surgery, etc. Has the MLB list been seriously updated - or is it just last season's list with the acquisitions slotted in?

[andyb]

MLB is updating their lists in the next month. The Biddle ranking has not been adjusted after the TJ surgery. MLB tends to insert traded players but keep most of the rest of their rankings static until they re-do the entire list a couple times a year.

[Slinging_Southpaw]

julio...sure I can answer that easily. I am using MLB's current top 20 list. I would take either of them over, Lively, Imhof, Windle and tied with Goeddel. Heck, Biddle was #21 and he just got DFA. Tirado is on the list and he wasn't even protected. I like the potential of Liraino better than any of those guys except Goeddel, who I rate evenly.

For whatever it's worth, Goeddel is the only one of the players CD listed who is in Winkleman's top 20 (he's at 19). He ranks Windle #32 and Lively #33. Imhof appears not to make his top 50.

PhuturePhillies is ranking based on a day-by-day reader poll. As of now,they're through #17, and only Goeddel has made their list (he's at #16). Lively and Windle look like they're going to land somewhere in the 20s. Imhof isn't even under consideration.

Jesse Biddle appears nowhere on anybody's current prospect list that I'm aware of, except the MLB list. He's down with TJ surgery, etc. Has the MLB list been seriously updated - or is it just last season's list with the acquisitions slotted in?

I agree with CD.
Though nice to look at, I think you can put too much stock in a list.
Coming into last year, Aaron Altherr had fallen out of the Top 20.
Myself, I'll rate a player higher the closer he gets to the Major Leagues, if only because he's more proven.
I don't put a whole lot of stock in a Alberto Tirado type that can throw a baseball through a brick wall, if he could only manage to hit it. I would have traded Tirado for Liriano in a heart beat.
Liriano would have been in my Top 20, Cecchini in my Top 30.
I see Liriano, the same way I see Altherr. They're both that tool chest that we bet on in so many drafts, that never made it, but know if they did make it, then you'd have a heckuva ballplayer.

[julio]

Here's Winkleman's top 20:

1. Crawford
2. Williams
3. Thompson
4. Appel
5. Alfaro
6. Randolph
7. Kilome
8. Quinn
9. Knapp
10. Eflin
11. Tocci
12. Pinto
13. Medina
14. Pivetta
15. Kingery
16. Pujols
17. Grullon
18. Canelo
19. Goeddel
20. Hoskins

And here are the top 17 as ranked by PP readers/voters:

1. Crawford
2. Williams
3. Thompson
4. Appel
5. Randolph
6. Quinn
7. Alfaro
8. Kilome
9. Knapp
10. Eflin
11. Hoskins
12. Kingery
13. Pinto
14. Cozens
15. Tocci
16. Goeddel
17. Medina

Total of 21 players listed so far (Cozens isn't in Winkleman's top 20 - Matt has him at #31). No Lively, no Windle, no Imhof, no Biddle.

MLB's current list has Lively, Windle, Imhof, and Biddle ranked well ahead of Tocci, Canelo, Medina, Grullon, and all but Imhof ranked ahead of Andrew Knapp. Some of that is just differences of opinion, but some of it looks like failure to update (Biddle?). MLB doesn't have Rhys Hoskins or Dylan Cozens in their top 30.

The thing is, our prospect list looks very different than it did last season. Part of that is the major acquisitions (Williams, Thompson, Appel, Alfaro), but part of it is internal growth - both good draft picks and young players taking a step forward in 2015.

For those who lusted after Rymer Liriano or Darin Cecchini - would you see one of them as a more interesting DH down the road (or corner outfielder) than Dylan Cozens, Aaron Brown, Rhys Hoskins? Winkleman sees these guys as from #20 (Hoskins) to mid-30s (Brown). If your argument is just "more is better," I can understand that.

[Slinging_Southpaw]

Sure more is better, especially if the trade off is only chump change in MLB terms and a roster spot now owned by Bobby LaFramboise.