Discussion

bkox 2017-07-25 23:30:30 UTC #701

Austinfan 2017-07-25 23:46:25 UTC #702

Milwaukee's 17th ranked prospect, not sure he'd break our top 30.

flyers19rw 2017-07-26 00:20:18 UTC #703

We'd all like to see the team made better. However let's look at the potential roster five years down the road. It's highly doubtfull that what the Phillies get in return for Neshak, Kendrick, Hellickson, or Nava is going to be better than what is already in the system. Would you move Neshak to the Brewers for their 17th best prospect, AAA player who would need protection on the 40 man this winter? Kendrick, Hellickson and Nava are worth less than Neshak.
Perhaps moving Galvis, who is nearing FA in the future, or Hernandez has merit. Then again, there is no demand for middle IFs at this moment. Maybe this winter; who knows.
The best asset that the team has is its cash. A move for a star or stars from a cash strapped team is the best play for the Phillies to make. The rumored deals with the Marlins is what the PTB should be looking for. There's Machado in Baltimore and others that might be had. Adding a couple of players like Machado, Stanton, Yelich, etc. to the core that is presently in the system would make for a quick cure and would be a sensible expenditure.

andyb 2017-07-26 00:44:06 UTC #704

But that is kind of obvious. Good GMs find willing partners. Hellickson was one of the best starters on the market last year. Neshek is one of the better relievers this year. Galvis is a legitimate starting SS. These guys have value. The trade market does not always come to you. Sometimes you need to be creative and figure out a way to help your team in the long run.

andyb 2017-07-26 00:45:54 UTC #705

Milwaukee's system is at least as good as ours.

bigegypt0417 2017-07-26 00:59:40 UTC #706

He's in his 6th year in the minors and his numbers arent progressing all that much...the brewers minor league system is pretty top heavy.

Austinfan 2017-07-26 01:02:43 UTC #707

Cordell makes me think of Tromp, Cordell has better numbers in a hitter's league, but there's nothing special about him.
Cordell struggled with the jump to AA, he bounced back the next year and is having a solid season, but is now in the PCL at age 25.
Tromp turns 24 in September, and is having a solid AA season after a good 2016, struggled with A ball at a young age but turned it around.
The two are similar hitters, with good but not great contact, good power, decent but not special BB%, and K rates around 20%.

Both are OF prospects who might make it, but neither would be odds on favorites.

That being said, I'd rather a more talented Cordell at A ball level with a couple years of control, than a player in AAA ball.

andyb 2017-07-26 01:03:43 UTC #708

Sometimes we have a knee jerk reaction that our system must be better than everybody else's though. More importantly Swarzak is not as good as Neshek. This year Neshek has been better and Neshek has a much, much longer track record of success and playoff experience.

bigegypt0417 2017-07-26 01:05:41 UTC #709

No sir. I live about 15 minutes from miller park...i get to hear about their system as much as the phillies...they are a good system but just top heavy.

bkox 2017-07-26 02:08:39 UTC #710

More and more Starting pitching coming on the market.

schillingfan 2017-07-26 03:04:56 UTC #711

I agree with you that in retrospect Hellickson should have been traded. I don't know WHAT WAS OFFERED. Phillies took a gamble that the supplemental pick was worth more than what was offered. I agree you need to be creative. I would like to see the Phillies trade Galvis and Hernandez, though there is less urgency than Neshak as there may be a better market over the winter. If they believe that, then, again, that's a gamble. If they start losing gambles, then I'll question them. If they don't trade Neshek by the deadline, I'll question that. But we really had very little value other than Hellickson last year. So I'll see what Klentak does once the dust clears.

The two to tango comment may result in concluding Klentak doesn't know how to tango and is overestimating the market for our guys. Too difficult to draw a conclusion based on one year's worth of trades for a new GM.

LoneStarPhan 2017-07-26 03:19:14 UTC #712

My thought as well.

Many GMs are getting things done. Last July was a disappointment. Opportunities appear to have been missed. I await the results of this week but expect something to get done.

andyb 2017-07-26 03:42:14 UTC #713

That is fair and I am not saying Klentak is a bad GM. He was just not a good one last year at the deadline. Also a little worried that nothing has happened so far this year. Some of the teams willing to pay good prospects for better relievers have already done so. I worry Klentak is still learning how to make a deal and how to pull the trigger on one. Since the Giles deal he really has made fewer deals than almost any other GM and it is not like he has not had need or opportunity.

fish 2017-07-26 13:46:00 UTC #714

I still can't get over it- a young, first time GM that hasn't really even tried to put his mark on the roster after a year and a half. Someone has to be pressuring him to be 'patient', right?

bigegypt0417 2017-07-26 13:55:35 UTC #715

2018...on opening day you will see the changes. At this point there will be at the least 3 rookies in that line-up. We also have a crazy amount of money to spend.

Patience is tough but we are going to see changes...

Austinfan 2017-07-26 14:00:38 UTC #716

This is getting kind of silly.
The only tradeable asset Klentak had at last year's deadline was Hellickson, it's not like people were knocking down the door to get him, exactly what offers were turned down?
And he had value as a controllable asset.
Someone like Rupp, with 1/2 of a good season, was not a hot item, and the Phillies ended up trading Ruiz.

This year Klentak has Neshak, who is no more valuable than Anthony Swarzak (probably less so, given Swarzak is more durable). Swarzak landed Cordell, a 25 year old utility OF/IF who has an outside shot at starting but is more likely to be a bench player. Kendrick might have some value, but he's missed half the season, buyer beware. Nava, Benoit, Hellickson?
Sure he could try to move Joseph, how much value do you think a RH 1B with below average defense and a .750 OPS has? Better to wait and hope for a strong finish that makes him tradeable.

Klentak hasn't made a splash because:
1) he hasn't had the tradeable assets, you don't move guys like Galvis or Hernandez until their replacements are ready, do you really want to watch Florimon play SS or 2B?
2) he hasn't had the need - the big firesale occurred in 2015, at this point you're just dealing around the edges. Phillies are two years away from being competitive (2019) and three from contending (2020). So there's no need to rush into deals, nothing is going to accelerate the rebuild more than player development.

Major moves are far more likely in December, when Klentak can package guys (say Hernandez, Joseph and Thompson for ???), knows what he has ready for 2018, and can use that salary cap space to take a bad contract off someone's hands.

The reshaping is occurring through changes in the coaching and scouting, but most of these are "duck" moves, invisible on the surface, churning underneath.
They've come into the 21 century, OPS is no longer a dirty word in the CBP offices, minor league instruction seems to have become more consistent, there's a actual organization philosophy that goes deeper than cliches.

allentown 2017-07-26 14:06:31 UTC #717

I"m not sure. I think it's probably timid newby GM afraid of being bashed by media/fans for "giving guys away for too little." There is a consistent trait in the Phillies organization over time of a reluctance to raise the white flag over a losing season by trading even middle relievers who won't be returning. I think that is an impetus to push trades right up against the deadline. Trades for relievers have been happening. There are fewer and fewer teams left to trade with. I think Klentak sees less criticism from no deal than from a deal. He wants a slam-dunk, nobody can criticize it deal, and those rarely happen. He really needs to just accept an adequate/good deal.

andyb 2017-07-26 14:19:29 UTC #718

It is only silly because you keep dismissing Klentak's total failure at the deadline last year. We KNOW Hellickson had significant value. We know he could have brought at least Naylor. We know there were teams looking for starting pitching and we know Klentak failed to make a deal (for a gamble of compensation that he lost).

We also know they had relievers that should have been traded. Jeanmar Gomez probably had value around the same level as Neshek this year. He was probably not seen as a closer, but he had an ERA of 2.59 in the first half (2.33 in July), good control, durability, and more than a single season track record. Neris was pitching great and was a valuable asset since he was controllable and the league had not caught up to him. Rupp had value as a 750 OPS catcher. Galvis had value as a plus defense starting SS. Hernandez had value in the middle of a very good 2B year.

Do the Phillies trade all of those players? Of course not. Would they need to get rentals in some cases? Of course.

But the Phillies did have tradeable assets at the deadline last year and Klentak failed to do anything to improve his club in the future. It is kind of funny that all the players you praise as great (Rupp and Galvis in particular) suddenly have no trade value. Perhaps your scouting skills were in error? Even if they are overrated as I believe I still think they had value that could have been enhanced by the short term nature of deadline deals.

flyers19rw 2017-07-26 14:25:24 UTC #719

Who exactly is going to criticize Klentak that would matter? Eskin? Missanelli? Other talk show gurus? Earlier this week we saw how much Klentak cared about cheap shots from these types. The only critics that matter to the GM are MacPhail and the Middleton/Bucks owners.
If/when Klentak makes his moves, he probably is not doing this on his own. Its hard to believe that MacPhail, John Middleton, as well as others such as Gillick, not being involved to some degree. This baseball thing is big business. When multi million dollar moves are being made in such a corporation, rarely does one person control the entire process.
In defense of Klentak. We phans only see what we are allowed to see by TPTB which makes evaluating team moves difficult. Who really knows what was on the table last year for Hellickson? What was the true give and take between the Astros and Phillies regarding the Giles trade? These are business secrets to which we have little availability.
MacPhail is a seasoned, respected and successful baseball administrator. Its highly doubtful that he would hire a dunce to be his GM. Klentak, when he was hired, was well thought of for his use of analytics. If the Phillies didn't hire him when they did, there were other organizations ready to snap him up. The guy isn't exactly Rick Perry. Lets give him some time to see what he can do before throwing him under the bus.

tom81 2017-07-26 14:30:20 UTC #720

Well you could watch Kendrick play 2B the rest of the year, or until the end of August, given you might not get much for Kendrick before the trade deadline. This would give Kingery more time to get ready. Hernandez is the one guy that has real trade value with a top prospect almost ready. There are also a couple of playoff teams in need of an upgrade at 2B. Hernandez has a .385 OBA in 39 July PA. He's healthy and getting on base. He has real value, we don't have to trade him but if the offer is right it makes sense to trade him.